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 Wood Elf General /Treant ... and Dark Elf ... and Demons ... and Knights xD

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Kaisho
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PostSubject: Wood Elf General /Treant ... and Dark Elf ... and Demons ... and Knights xD   Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:40 am

Wood Elf
At the moment the Wood Elf General (the Dryad) is not producible in the game, because of that the Phoenix is the only way (except for the hero of course) to convert Buildings.

Also the Ancient Treant is pretty much useless, even though he is so expensive.
He needs more HP and /or better armor. His attack is also pretty weak at the moment and needs to be increased.

Dark Elf
The Spider Queens has less attack than the barbarian builder ... and less HP.
I include them here because of the Dark Elf hero ability thingy to summon some of them, even though they can't produce them. The normal Spider which they can still produce is pretty much one of the most expansive units in the game (cost's more than 100 stone to build) and is also one of the weakest... that should also be changed.
Also the Imp is produced at their Kargoth's Portal (or how it is named) in 3-4 seconds, even though the Demons need much longer to produce it themselves (it IS a demon unit after all).

Demons
The Summoner (the General) can be build in a level 1 Keep and is pretty much super cheap.
The Salamander is too strong or too early accessible and is produced in like 4 seconds... with one building you can produce them with the rally point set in the enemy's base you can just overrun him/her.

Knights
The Inquisitor (the Knight General) doesn't need any mana for his summoning spell, and so he can instantly spawn a whole army of swords. (yeah, they are weak but with an army of these you can just overwhelm an entire base)

Balancing in general:
The big units aren't stronger than small units... most of the time they are even weaker... this includes big Generals like the Giant and the Minotaur King.
In my opinion a unit which needs 4 times the food of a small unit should be stronger than at least 2 units which use together 2 food...
The most big units are as weak as units which need only 1 food and are much more expansive to produce.
The Catapults are also much to strong against units.
Also should Units which need a higher level of the keep be stronger (at least have more HP) than "standard" units like the infantry units (and builders).
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Joe the Bartender
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PostSubject: Re: Wood Elf General /Treant ... and Dark Elf ... and Demons ... and Knights xD   Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:23 am

I think it would be cool if balancing suggestions got a different forum to ideas, I'm not sure if Patrick wants this sort of thing here or not but whatever, he's free to shred or move my message as he likes Very Happy.

Anyway, I started playing The Protectors fairly recently and I really like many of the improvements but can understand some of the things you've encountered. Massive units like Giants are actually worse off against towers and projectile units than normal Orcs for example (1 giant with ~220hp vs 4 orcs with ~140hp each). The new unit balancing has brought on a whole range of issues to my mind, many of which to do with the heroes themselves. I do like that the basic units have been brought up towards the advanced units and heroes, but few initial changes to the heroes means frailer classes end up being weaker than a single basic melee unit. Whenever I'm playing, I tend to refrain from sending my hero across the map even with a reasonable army in tow just out of fear of getting one-shotted. As the basic units have been empowered, more advanced units have taken a massive toll and the towers have been buffed. This presents another problem to the game, as towers are now so powerful that they'll easily be able to kill any hero in one or two shots. If you're marching your hero around at the front of an army into the fog of war, you could end up instantly dead. In essence, all heroes need to start off with much more hits, armour and resistance just to survive a shot or two.

I think a good resolution is to either have resurrectable heroes and/or follow what Warlords Battlecry 1 did and make all heroes roughly equal upon start (they all started with around 300hp, even wizards). A long time ago, I asked Faestus/ESPee if he could create some sort of repeatable research at each HQ building which resurrected dead heroes. The reason behind this was because the loss of a hero essentially ends the game for the player. I think the new ability would kill two birds with one stone so to speak, because this would also solve all forms of the Assassin and even unexpected insta-kills from stuff like towers.

The equalized units in general make pretty much all units which cost more than 1 unit cap questionable. I've never refrained from producing Minotaur Kings before in WBC3, but 4 Minotaurs are just so much better it hurts. Races with 2 unit cap-costing basic units have a significantly harder time dealing with other races. Their units, such as the Stone Golem, are approximately the same as other basic units but for every Stone Golem, the enemy has 2 of their basic units. I think that equalized units also take away a lot of individuality from the races. Bringing their stats up a bit is fine, but they should feel more unique and special in my opinion.

Tower vs unit combat is generally extremely virulent, where towers butcher anything they come across unless the enemy has reached them in which case it's the other way round. It's fine as it is, but I'd prefer it if towers stick around for longer and were less abusable. Tower stacks usually make defence so much stronger than offence just because they kill anything before anything can reach them. This is a problem with just about all versions of Warlords Battlecry though, to an extent.

Catapults have provided problems since... ever, really. In pretty much all of the WBC games, catapults have been undercosted giant-throwing machines of mass destruction. The empowered basic units do a lot to counter this problem, but the Catapult's newly increased defences can still provide an issue. There are too many instances of games I've had in past game versions where all I or the AI had to do to win was spam or even rush Catapults at the enemy. However, they're absolutely essential for some races, which can't really do anything with any of the units they've got against the newly buffed towers. The AI really love creating a massive bulwark of those things, and games can occasionally last forever due to them. I think buffing the Catapult's damage to 60 and making them do half damage to units would do the trick.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the Aristocrat vs Plutocrat perks. In general, the latter is always going to be better because actually getting the unit is nearly always stronger than producing it faster. Saving like 2/3s of unit production resources is a bit mad. Every time you produce an Orc for example, you essentially gain 60 Metal at the cost of waiting an extra 18 seconds or so for unit production (something like 10 secs vs 28 secs). All those extra resources can then be used to create a much bigger base than the Aristocrat, produce more units, have more units out at any time and defend the base with more towers. Merchants from most versions of WBC3 tend to replicate this problem, where their value increases from simply existing (due to Charisma and skills like Wealth, Smelting, Quarrying and Gemcutting).

Sorry about the wall of text and hope this helps whoever somehow has the time to read it Embarassed.
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Patrick_the_Winekiller
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PostSubject: Re: Wood Elf General /Treant ... and Dark Elf ... and Demons ... and Knights xD   Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:57 am

Units have been rebalanced in 0.8.4, except for the hero's starting stats - maybe we can add more suggestions for each class? Some heroes could have more mana than hit points - all numbers tweaked to make them stronger than a tower blow.

As for the perk issue, 0.8.4 brings the sliders: a more exact way of handling perk effects (or their severity). This being said, there are 5 levels of Aristocracy and 5 of Plutocracy. The effects below are per level:

1. Aristocracy makes your units more expensive by +10% but +10% faster to produce as well
2.Plutocracy makes your units +10% cheaper but also +10% slower to produce

Making a maximum effect of 50%-50%. Currently, an average infantry costs 50 resources and 25 seconds. If we do the math, we'll save about 25 resources for 12 extra seconds of waiting - that's 2 resources per second. Of course, some units cost more in resources than in time, so the scale tends to weight in favor of time, but here's another example:

Currently (0.8.4), an average level-5-keep unit (big boys) costs about 200 resources and 70 seconds. Obviously, we'll save about 100 resources for 35 seconds at maximum plutocracy. That's a 2,85 to 1 ratio; a second costs almost 3 resources.

These are of course approximate examples, and results may vary, but it should provide a general idea. So, from what I understand, you are suggesting to decrease the favor of time, so that one second would cost less resources, am I right? If so, then what should the average ratio be?

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PostSubject: Re: Wood Elf General /Treant ... and Dark Elf ... and Demons ... and Knights xD   Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:34 am

Here's some of my thoughts on the resource/time issue after I've made some notes/calculations:
On a Small sized map, the Aristocrat roughly has a 50% chance of beating the Plutocrat. On almost any other map, the Plutocrat will win. If both heroes only have 1 Barracks, the perks will work better. The problem is that constructing more barracks will make up for unit production time, which ends up making the Plutocrat perk flawless. The only chance the Aristocrat has of defeating the Plutocrat is to rush on a small map. I believe the situation is better when the time cost is 300% of normal instead of 150%. Even then, there could be unforeseen problems factoring in like the size of a map.

I think a 50% cut in resources probably swings the game too much. A lighter perk will be easier to balance properly and won't have such a massive impact on the game (10-25% resource cut, 30-35% time increase maybe?).
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PostSubject: Re: Wood Elf General /Treant ... and Dark Elf ... and Demons ... and Knights xD   Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:10 am

Adjusted it in 0.8.5 as follows:
1. Aristocracy makes your units more expensive by +5% but +7% faster to produce as well
2. Plutocracy makes your units +5% cheaper but also +7% slower to produce

giving maximum 25% resources, 35% time at level 5 aristo/pluto

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