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Joe the Bartender
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PostSubject: Hero Classes and Skills   Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:04 am

This is the other list of stuff I had sitting around, this time for hero classes, skills and racial skills. To avoid it gathering dust and becoming lost, I'm uploading it here Smile. Similarly to the magic-based list, some of this will be obsolete but I hope there are still some useful suggestions in it.

Skills

All Morale Skills - +1 Morale per point instead of +2 like in 1.03.23. +2 is too strong, even non-support based heroes are getting these to significantly pump their entire side up DONE!

All other XP Skills - as they are in 1.03.23, possibly with the exception of Memories. +1XP per point was too low, +1.5 is probably better. +2 might be doable but could be too much DONE!

All Seeing Eye - +3XP per point DONE!

Arcane Rune - +5 hits per level instead of +5% DONE!

Constitution - +15 hits per point instead of +10 like in 1.03.23? DONE!

Contamination - each point also increases the speed at which disease degenerates the afflicted unit's stats (each point decreases time required for max degeneration by 1?). Either that or Disease lasts longer over the whole map by like +10 secs per point? N/A

Death Rune - +10 hits instead of +5% hits per level DONE!

Elemental Lore - Possibly +4XP per point DONE!

Forest Rune - +10 hits instead of +5% hits per level, effects Ancient Treants DONE!

Knight Protector - works for High Elf Dragon Knight and any other mounted knight I can't think of right now, +3XP per point to avoid being out-powered by Riding. Either that or replace Knight Protector with Riding? That makes more sense to be honest DONE!

Life Rune - +10 hits instead of +5% hits per level DONE!

Mage King - make it effect all spellcaster units
DONE!

Magic Resistance - +7 per point DONE!

Manslayer - effects Barbarians DONE!

Riding - does it effect all cavalry? If not probably make it do so, would nicely enhance the mix with Leadership and multiple races with the Chieftain hero N/A

Shadow Strength - at least +4 combat at night < obsolete, it's already +5 in the Protectors N/A

Slimemaster - +4 XP for Slimes per level N/A

Thievery - allow up to 40% chance to gain resources instead of 20%, change the amount gained from 1-10 to 5-20, chance of stealing resources +2% per point DONE!


Racial Skills

Empire - Change Serpentslayer to Beast Slayer or perhaps another skill. Racial slaying abilities are certainly something that shouldn't even exist as hero skills. There isn't a WBC player on the planet that has invested points into a useless skill which makes just the hero unit nerf a single race (out of the 16). The exceptions to this are Beast Slayer & Dragonslayer since they effect all the races to some extent < either that or add new skills where the slayer skill slots are for all heroes and classes DONE!

Fey - Probably change Gemcutting. It's too powerful for the Fey to have such early access to via the Merchant (Wealth and Gemcutting access at such an early level is a bit silly)

Orc - Elfslayer to Cowardslayer DONE!

The Swarm - Change Manslayer to Thick Hide? Or add Thick Hide to the level 10 slot DONE!


Classes

Archmage - Change Divination to Ritual/Nature Magic, possibly change Illusion to Energy/Nature Magic and change Magic Resistance to Gate? To sort of go along with the theme of summoning multiple different creatures. If not, Magic Resistance is still an obvious remove here

Bard - Change Elemental Resistance to a new Archery ability seen in the Ranger hero class notes and exchange it with Divination? Also Diplomacy is something I'd like to see again (then the Diplomacy items would work again too pirat) DONE!

Daemonslayer - Change Daemonslayer to something like Pyromancy/All Seeing Eye, exchange it with Warding and rename class to Warlock/Battlemage? < Either that or add Pyromancy/All Seeing Eye to the lvl 1 slot and rename the class DONE!

Deathknight - add Invulnerability to the lvl 15 slot and move Necromancy down to lvl 5 or change Manslayer to Cowardslayer DONE!

Defiler - < Take away the Plaguelord skills here (Slimemaster & All-Seeing Eye). The Defiler's Poison magic spell sphere has nothing to do with the Plaguelords. In their places I'd suggest a skill that increases the effects of poison on the map (like the Blessing of Melkor research) and another skill (I can't think of one right now)

Dragonslayer - Dragonmaster would be nice, but I can understand it not being on this class since it would become the Ssrathi's go-to hero choice

Elementalist - Move Rune Magic to lvl 15, move Pyromancy to lvl 5 and put Elemental Lore in lvl 1? Lore and/or Energy could be put in at lvl 25 (or a new elemental based skill that buffs spell damage?). Also this class desperately wants Nature Magic just for the Elementalism spell. This will likely be tricky though DONE!

Illusionist - < I'm not entirely sure why Leadership is here. I mean it could be thought of as creating the illusion of charisma, but that's a bit of a stretch and the ability itself is somewhat unfitting and useless. I think a skill which increases command radius would be greatly welcomed in its place

Lichelord - Exchange Necromancy with Shadow Strength, Change Elfslayer to Ignore Armour, Change Manslayer to Regeneration? Maybe even rename the class, Lichelord doesn't sit right with me. It's a little too ambiguous and oddly specific. It's like being a Basilisklord Very Happy < I'm becoming more convinced that it would be a whole lot easier just to delete this class entirely. I find almost everything about it wrong

Paladin - Change Deathslayer to Witch-Hunter. I'd like to see Invulnerability on it (to make it a reflection of the Deathknight) but I'm not sure it needs that skill anyway DONE!

Ranger - Change Orcslayer to a new Archery skill at lvl 1 which allows the hero to fire arrows much like 1.03.23 Fire Missile except the arrows will have more damage but won't be on fire - the creation of an archer hero Cool. Possibly start off with +3 points in Running and 0 points in Archery so the player can choose whether to be an archer Ranger or not. DONE!

Shaman - Change Magic Resistance to Energy? DONE!

Summoner - Move Gate over Elfslayer and add a skill at lvl 15 (Warding?) N/A

Thief - Add a new ability that decreases conversion time for the hero at lvl 15, at max points decreases it by 30-50%? Magic Resistance is a pretty horrible ability for any hero class to have. It also doesn't fit on the Thief at all. Also include Thievery, it was a cool concept it just wasn't properly balanced on 1.03.23 (allow up to 40% chance to gain resources instead of 20%, change the amount gained from 1-10 to 5-20, chance of stealing resources +2% per point ). DONE!


All Heroes - Nerf the decrease in time to conversion that is gained on levelling up, currently it makes Dexterity investment for the purposes of mine-stealing too pointless (I would recommend removing it otherwise games can become way too fast). Also, please can we have no deathblows against heroes? This is the most unfun way to win/lose a game as there's no way to prepare a hero against a deathblow. Obviously a hero is going to be killed if there's a large difference between combat that favours the enemy, but this isn't the case. Deathblows are happening from ratios as close as 4:5 and even 1:1. It's extremely unfair. Faestus has the code for this if he's still around anyway.

Another thing all heroes need is a much more significant body (if the balancing is still similar to how it is in 0.8.3). Heroes generally need 100 more HP, 10-20 more armour and resistance and 10 more combat. Currently, heroes (especially wizards, thieves, bards etc) are really frail and fight worse than normal melee units. This is another thing fixed by Hero Resurrection though. However, this issue becomes a much, much more significant problem in the campaign, where some maps cannot be won with certain hero/class combinations.

If hero models based on standard units gets the go ahead, I think a translucent little gold radius ring around all heroes (and maybe even retinue units) could activate when pressing r.

Can there be some sort of button to enable/disable allied conversion? This has been a problem for me ever since the earliest days of WBC where my command radius intersected an allied structure which I'd have to convert in order to take this mine.

Hero Names - I'd like to be able to use longer hero names and commas for when I want to be particularly flavourful or artistic with my heroes Cool. It would also help when naming campaign and chapter heroes too.

Levelling - I'm not certain that 1 stat point = 1 skill point. For example, Intelligence vs Ritual: +2% spellcasting chance = +3 mana, +1 mana regen (per 20 seconds) per 5 points of intelligence and +0.5 unit XP. DONE!

I think 4 stats may not be enough. The lack of stats makes players just dump all their points into a single stat because it governs everything to do with what they want. There's no need to put points in the other stats. I think splitting the stats up would at least force players to invest points in more than one stat. The secondary problem here is that if the stats were split up, some of them would have the same effect as certain skills. To help fix this issue, skills could have a cap put on them depending upon their hero level or a stat. If stats are going to be kept the way they are for the moment, I think they need to be like they are in 1.03.23. For example, blocking out the retinue except for captain charisma is really unfun and puts even more power into the merchant's hands.

Giving 5 points per level up instead of 2 allows heroes to become much more powerful at an earlier level. This is fine if everyone's starting off at level 1 on a local multiplayer game for example, but the power gulfs between players at even so little as a 2-level difference start becoming obvious. If possible, stats could cost 2 points, skills could be capped to the player's level/a stat to prevent abuse and each level up could give 3 points instead of 5. DONE!

Perks - Since these give penalties as well as benefits, these should always start as neutral upon character creation (no points invested in either direction). This is because an imbalance occurs where some races start with what they want whilst others have to change their perks, which costs them up to an entire level. In addition, if a hero wants to change their perk back again, it will cost them more points just to reverse an action. Sometime in the future I think it would be a good idea to allow players to take back skill points at the cost of crowns in the campaign. DONE!

Hero Resurrection - I've mentioned this elsewhere on another thread but I believe it fits much better here. This idea fixes so much with WBC. It stops unfun/unfair chances and strategies, stops the game from being decided when a hero dies, makes the game more fun for everyone and if combined with the restricted Generals idea, then the game will also become far more tactical. Hero resurrection shouldn't come cheap otherwise a hero's death can become meaningless and they could also spawn with only 1/10th of their HP/MP to prevent warrior/spellcaster abuse.

Random Temporary Heroes - a new temporary hero option that randomly generates your hero depending upon the race you selected in the Skirmish panel (or is selected by the Random race option). Essentially, instead of choosing the temporary hero, you get given one like the AI. This could be interesting in multiplayer.


Last edited by Patrick_the_Winekiller on Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:46 pm; edited 16 times in total (Reason for editing : Checking what's done.)
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:13 am

Thievery, Diplomacy, Fire Missile and Swiftness skills implemented in 0.8.4. Also, there is no need to "exchange" one skill for another. We can add as many as we like Very Happy

Also, should Knight Protector affect Slayer Knights and Doom Knights?

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:24 am

I think Thievery should have a chance to steal items from enemy backpacks and even from shops!

The item is automatically moved into the Thief's own backpack. If there's no space, then no item can be stolen. When the item is stolen, the game should notify all players involved (the Thief and the enemy Hero, if any) via the in game chat box. The same one that mentions which spell you have learnt in game / what resources the Zombie, Bronze Golem have harvested.

If an item has been stolen from a shop, then a few high level, neutral-owned Mercenaries should immediately spawn in by the shop, with the Boss Lair icon underneath them. These Mercenaries then give chase to your Thief of a Hero! "You better have put a lot of points in that running skill!!!" Tee hee!
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:30 am

Not a bad idea, but I can only imagine how flooded the chat will be when two thieves are dueling. @

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:21 am

Awesome! I didn't know classes could have more skills Very Happy. I'll take another look at the list soon, most likely after I've fixed the WBC2 terrain tiles.

I'd say Knight Protector probably should effect both mounted and dismounted knights. If I was an Undead Paladin, it would be a little annoying that my knights didn't receive any buffs from Knight Protector. Is it possible to implement this though? Does morphing units retain their XP? I don't remember any more scratch. If they do get effected though, the info text for the skill will need to say that it effects all knights rather than just the mounted ones.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:03 am

The only limitation to skill number is to fit the 800x600 level up screen. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:31 am

New Hero class: Matador!
It comes with the Bull Slayer, Taming, Weaponmaster and Leadership skills. Basketball
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:24 am

I'm not a fan of racial slayer skills tongue. Poor Lichelord... pale
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:56 am

On slayer skills, I believe the following info should be useful (situation in TPC 0.8.4 based on tags):

Unavoidably useful (any race):
Smite Good: extra damage vs good creatures (46 units)
Smite Evil: extra damage vs evil creatures (64 units)
Smite Neutral(?): extra damage vs neutral creatures (95 units)

Unavoidably useful (any race):
Reave: extra damage vs large creatures (51 units)
Trample: extra damage vs small creatures (46 units)
???: extra damage vs medium-sized creatures (72 units)
???: extra damage vs huge creatures (30 units)

Moderately useful:
Beastslayer: extra damage vs monsters (18 units)
Dragonslayer: extra damage vs dragons (14 units)
Manslayer: extra damage vs humans (20 units)
Dwarfslayer: extra damage vs dwarves (12 units)
Elfslayer: extra damage vs elves (26 units) - does not include fey units
Saboteur(?): extra damage vs mechanical (19 units)

Rarely useful:
Serpentslayer: extra damage vs snakemen
Bullslayer: extra damage vs minotaurs
Orcslayer: extra damage vs orcs
Daemonslayer: extra damage vs daemons
Deathslayer: extra damage vs undead

Help me fill in the blanks and sort out the usefulness of each skill.

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:41 am

Aiming to make the "rarely useful" ones more useful:

Orcslayer could be re-worded to Filth Slayer and does extra damage vs Orcs and any unit that transmits disease (and maybe even poison).

Daemonslayer could also be re-worded and made to also work against extra-planar creatures in addition to Daemons. (So Elementals and Archons) Perhaps "Void Slayer" for its name?

Bullslayer could be re-worded to Sartek Slayer or War Slayer?. In addition to Minotaurs, it also deals extra damage against Pegasi, Griffons and Gnolls (if they're not tagged as Minotaurs in your mod). Basically, anything related to Sartek. If we go down the route of War Slayer, maybe even have it deal extra damage against units with high-ish combat?

Deathslayer could become Night Slayer (or Dusk Slayer) and deals extra damage to anything that gains a bonus at Night. So Orcs / Undead / Dark Elves. (Night Dragon  Razz  )

Serpentslayer could be combined with Dragonslayer and changed to Reptilian Slayer.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:51 am

Another way to look at slayer skills could be:

Global Effect (effects all races to an extent):
Smite Good: extra damage vs good creatures (46 units)
Smite Evil: extra damage vs evil creatures (64 units)
Smite Neutral(?): extra damage vs neutral creatures (95 units) < taking a neutral side and making it good would solve the imbalance. Not sure if Smite Neutral should exist though
Reave: extra damage vs large creatures (51 units)
Trample: extra damage vs small creatures (46 units)
???: extra damage vs medium-sized creatures (72 units) < After some thought, this probably shouldn't exist. It has too much potential to become broken.
???: extra damage vs huge creatures (30 units) < merge with Reave? Shouldn't give as much damage as Dragonslayer though
Beastslayer: extra damage vs monsters (18 units) < +10 dmg per point I think. The more conditional the effects of a skill, the more each point should count
Dragonslayer: extra damage vs dragons (14 units) < +10 dmg per point instead of +5 would help a lot
Saboteur(?): extra damage vs mechanical (19 units) < +10 dmg per point

Racial Effect (effects only a single race):
Manslayer: extra damage vs humans (20 units)
Dwarfslayer: extra damage vs dwarves (12 units)
Elfslayer: extra damage vs elves (26 units) - does not include fey units
Serpentslayer: extra damage vs snakemen
Bullslayer: extra damage vs minotaurs
Orcslayer: extra damage vs orcs
Daemonslayer: extra damage vs daemons
Deathslayer: extra damage vs undead

The problem with racial slayer skills is that the effects range from gimmicky to meaningless. If a hero has 10 points in Daemonslayer for example and the opponent is playing as Daemons, the hero's side is likely to win. Conversely, if the opponent is one of the other 15 races, the hero will probably lose. However, if the hero is involved in a lan multiplayer game where heroes and sides will likely remain similar, the hero will either be hated by one particular player or lose almost every time.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:19 am

Manslayer affects two races: empire and knights. The same goes to elfslayer (affects 3 races). If this skills are to be available for a hero (other than in item effects), then their significance should be calibrated according to chance (damage inverse proportionate to chance of usage), I think.

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:10 pm

I think all slayer skills should be global otherwise the gameplay risks becoming degenerate (particularly in PvP multiplayer).

Racial slayer skills could be replaced by global ones like these:

Aerie/Brood Slayer - +5 damage vs fliers. This could replace Orc Slayer for the Ranger.
Cowardslayer - +5 damage vs missile units. Replaces Elfslayer for the Orc race. Could also be used on a couple of hero classes like the Deathknight.
Witch-Hunter - +7 damage vs non-hero spellcaster units. Could replace Deathslayer on the Paladin.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:48 am

As far as leveling up goes, stats now do cost 2 AP and skills (not including spells) are capped at hero's current level (i.e. a level 4 hero cannot have more than 4 constitution). I'm not sure about gaining only 3 AP per level-up though; it might make the whole process simple and uninteresting as in vanilla again. I agree the power "gulf" between heroes of different levels was too big, but with the stat cost increase it should be smaller, yet not too small. After all, a level 4 hero knows 2 times more stuff than a level 2 hero, so the winner is most obvious.

Making skills dependent/capped on/by certain stats will reduce the variety of heroes, taking away the liberty of making weird/hybrid heroes, so that's a definite no-no.

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:44 am

Sounds good to me Smile.

Are racial slayer skills going to be kept or exchanged for global ones?
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:31 pm

I already implemented cowardslayer and witch hunter in 0.8.4 Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:38 am

Forgot to mention Traditionalist vs Experimentalist has the same problem as Aristocrat vs Plutocrat. Spells may be cast with a 50% lower skill but the spell costs drop dramatically - stuff costs 1/4 as much. It's like allowing your hero to produce 3+ units every 10-15 seconds as opposed to 3 slightly better ones which take 40-60 seconds. Souls also break it.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:17 pm

Just dropping this idea here. Only took a diagonal reading, just to see if this was here already. Is there any change we could have this new class to counter balance Archmage class?
Wizard, evil wizard or sorcerer

+x to fundamental racial moral (Dark Lord, imperial Lord, etc.)
Summoning magic
Witch hunter
Poison magic
Fire magic
Ritual/Lore
Necromancy Magic
Arcane Magic
Magic resistance
Fundamental race ability (leech, vampirism, etc.)


Also, is it possible to have “Spell mastery” and “Spell grandmastery” as new skills for Archmages and Wizards?
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:50 pm

Classes have 5 skills. The other 5 are racial. That's how the system works. Whenever both the race and the class have the same skill, it becomes available at level 1 regardless of other limits. I'm all for implementing new classes and skills though, so if you guys have any ideas fire away!

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:54 pm

Some might be absurd but at least it sparks some fire.

Classes:
Balrog (beastslayer, dragonslayer, daemonslayer, manslayer, warding)
Wizard (poison magic, arcane magic, magic resistance, necromancy magic, summoning magic)
 
Skills:
Spell Mastery (+x% mana regeneration?)
Spell Grand Mastery (+x% leveling your current spell – say, if major healing level 2 then gives x% to level 3)
Banishment (+x damage vs elementals, archons and daemons)
Lumberjack (+x damage vs treants and oakmen)
Hydromancy (+x damage vs Pyromancy and fire elementals)
Spectral Master (+x Xp to floating units)
Intolerance (+x moral when leading evil races)
Tolerance (+x moral when leading good races)
Indifference (+x moral when leading neutral races)
Revenge (+x damage vs Titans)
Mithril (+x armor to infantry)
Dragon Mithril (+x armor to dragons)
Dungeon Strength (+x damage to slayer and doom knights)
Haven (+x% conversion speed)
Crucifixion (+x damage vs opposite race)
Admiral (+x xp to boats and water elementals)
Marshal (+x Damage to generals)
Salvation (+x hp to your troops)
Cunning Arrow (+x combat to archers)
Order of Aranea (+x hp to arachnids and Spider pristess)
Order of the Moon king (+x combat to Pegasus and celestial dragons)
Order of Antharg (+x to poison magic skill--> increases poison “virulence”)
Order of Bartonia (+x damage to paladins, archons and inquisitors)
Inquisition (+x speed to Inquisitors)
Cannibalism (+x hp regeneration)
Fire Duty (+x xp to all daemons)
Death bringer (+x combat to reapers)
Reality destroyer (+x hp to fey troops)
Primitivism (+x moral leading orcs, minotaurs, barbarians and Ssrathi)
Culture (+x moral leading Dwarfs, Humans and High elfs)
Revolutionary Chaos (+x moral leading undead, dark elf and daemons)
Hypocrisy (+x speed to plague troops)
Slam (+x damage to barbarian troops)
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:18 pm

Contamination increases virulence. Each virulence point increases disease time as well (+15 seconds per point in vanilla and current tpc).

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:59 am

Patrick_the_Winekiller wrote:
Contamination increases virulence. Each virulence point increases disease time as well (+15 seconds per point in vanilla and current tpc).
I was wondering whether there could be any skill or maybe even a new research which debuffs the units quicker? It would be similar to the Blessing of Melkor research for the Swarm.

Zetoo wrote:
Some might be absurd but at least it sparks some fire
Looks good. In particular I like the Banishment, Mithril, Haven, Salvation and Cunning Arrow ideas. The Haven idea was one I was interested in ages ago to replace Magic Resistance on the Thief bounce. Maybe some of those could be renamed though imo.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:12 am

Joe the Bartender wrote:
Maybe some of those could be renamed though imo.

Yes, absolutely. Some could even become Classes instead, like Lumberjack(er), Hydromanc(er), etc. study
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Patrick_the_Winekiller
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:22 pm

Sorry, The Haven idea is already implemented as the Convincing skill in 0.8.5. And yes, it does replace the thief's Magic Resistance. It gives +2% faster conversions, with a maximum of 40%, but it affects only your hero (converting units have their normal speed).

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun May 03, 2015 1:46 am

I took a look into items.xcr for inspiration on characters and I think this could be interesting too:
Class: Arcanamancer (Arcane Magic, Time Magic, +3 0.8.5 new skills)
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