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Zetoo
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun May 24, 2015 12:46 am

I may be alone here, but I think some heroes shouldn’t have specific classes available due to the race they belong to. Example: Undead Paladin. Is this not utterly contradictory? In this case (g.e.), some classes should be forbidden, although it will decrease Hero diversity...
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun May 24, 2015 2:04 am

I wouldn't say so, it stubs creativity. I see no reason why a person's particular hero class should be restricted (though maybe the AI race/class selection should get better so we don't see so much stuff like Fey Warriors, not a good combo pirat). I like having the capability to be a Dwarf Necromancer for example - maybe he's using the dead for good or maybe he leads an evil Dwarven cult, the flavour is up to our imagination bounce.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun May 24, 2015 2:24 am

Perhaps changing only Ai is a better idea, indeed: The thing I had in mind was (general idea):
No Undead/Daemon Paladin/Healer/Priest;
No Fey Warrior;
Bard restricted to Humans;
Chieftain available only with Orcs, Minotaur and Barbarian;
Merchant only with Humans, all dwarves and Elves
Tinker with all Dwarves only.
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Patrick_the_Winekiller
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun May 24, 2015 6:35 pm

Reducing the chances an AI gets a weird hero-class combo sounds good to me. Currently, everything is random and has an equal chance of selection. BUT, keep in mind that in TPC, there's also a small chance that a hero would lead another race than his own (sometimes you can see a knight hero leading undead for example).

Thinking more, we could have a few preset heroes that have a specific name, class, race, strategy etc. with a very low chance of selection. What do you think?

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun May 24, 2015 9:46 pm

Patrick_the_Winekiller wrote:
Reducing the chances an AI gets a weird hero-class combo sounds good to me. Currently, everything is random and has an equal chance of selection. BUT, keep in mind that in TPC, there's also a small chance that a hero would lead another race than his own (sometimes you can see a knight hero leading undead for example).

Thinking more, we could have a few preset heroes that have a specific name, class, race, strategy etc. with a very low chance of selection. What do you think?

The old mod project started doing this, but I don't think it ever made it into any of their versions. As long as we get plenty of pre-sets for each profession so not all warriors would be the same, for example, then I'm up for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun May 24, 2015 11:00 pm

Patrick_the_Winekiller wrote:
(sometimes you can see a knight hero leading undead for example)

I like that and it makes sense (defection!). Once upon a time... I saw Fallan as a Fey Hero leading Daemons on a skirmish, after playing the official campaign...
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Tue May 26, 2015 6:40 am

That might actually be a bug, zeto, though I did place an even smaller chance of having chapter heroes on skirmishes/multiplayer. At any rate, this system is already implemented and fully tested, we just need the presets, so get going.

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Tue May 26, 2015 9:34 pm

Patrick_the_Winekiller wrote:
[...]Thinking more, we could have a few preset heroes that have a specific name, class, race, strategy etc. with a very low chance of selection. What do you think?

Kharn wrote:
As long as we get plenty of pre-sets for each profession so not all warriors would be the same, for example, then I'm up for it.

I suppose we can have some secondary characters from chapters, campaign, custom campaign etc. Keeping their status if they are currently heroes (thinking on Undead Chapter initial crew) or changing them to heroes if they are simply mentioned (Goodwind, g.e.) or played as more ordinary units (that Dark Rider at beginning of Woody Chapter g.e.).
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun May 31, 2015 12:10 am

Patrick_the_Winekiller wrote:
we just need the presets, so get going
Do you require .hro files or a list of stats etc?
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Patrick_the_Winekiller
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sun May 31, 2015 1:33 am

Just a written list should be fine. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:59 pm

I actually have an extra idea: how about all the "special members" of this forum get a preset hero in game with their name? Perhaps a really strong hero with a really low chance of being selected by the ai. This idea is usually a kick-starter reward for high bidders; having their character appear in game.

All willing should PM me their hero info and I'll code him/her in. Hint: the heroes do not need to respect the laws of leveling up or class-based skills. I encourage you to go wild.

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:07 am

Is there any way a person can make custom hero on the fly on hero creation window where racial skills remain but have custom class where a person could select his own skills out of the given set but have limit on skills total that can be added. But custom class would be unknowable to others, so it might could be problematic.

Secondly could healer be given energy instead of warding so it can heal more often or giving energy as sixth skill or would be it be more out of balance? Same goes for other classes having spell. Can masteries for all spells can added or it is same as adding points per spell count as mastery points. E-g Elcor's Aura is like giving mastery over healing something same could be for other spheres as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:08 pm

Hero stats, classes and skills have been modified in 0.8.6.

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:12 pm

Any release notes to see and expect things already implemented not those which may or may not come in 0.8.6.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:18 am

After playing the current version for a while i have to say I would love some
changes to the Warlock..
At the moment it seems (to me) like a weird combination of a Mage Hunter
(Witch hunter skill, magic resistance, ferocity) and a Summoner (Summoning & Mage King).

I would like two classes be made out of this:
A Mage Hunter (or Inquisitor) wo gets the combat skills, maybe coupled with El. Res. or something against summons, who excels at lynching those pesky High level mages.

And something like a Witchlord or so (I'm not good at naming things ^^'):
Kinda like a merchant who - in his greed - starts to summon daemons to increase his power and wealth.
So he gets mid-late access to summon, Mage King and maybe something like either wealth or Gemcutting?

Though I have to admit that I kinda liked the Daemonhunter:
A warrior who fights the evil, but in his search for power to defeat them succumbs to it..

Mhm.. Maybe I put to much RP into a strategy game Very Happy

But I would love to see more economy heroes, especially hybrid economy.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:54 am

Just to chip in here a little bit, I do think heroes are a bit too frail as it stands, and adding armor hp and resistance would go a long way for casters especially. Couple that with the option to resurrect your hero at a high cost and you get healthier gameplay overall. Dont know what the stance on this matter is nowadays though, since this thread was made a while back.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:45 pm

Just chiming in with my thoughts - I love the latest update; it's by far the best build yet.  A buddy of mine and myself have been playing pretty extensively over the past few weeks, and we've tried out most of the classes, both leveling them up legitimately and by theory-crafting with an XP map.  Unfortunately, there are a few classes that are still just a cut above the rest.

-Rogue is an excellent class; probably my new favorite.  However, they're on par with warriors in terms of combat and they're far better merchants than an actual merchant.  Evasion is a great skill, and it brings me back to the old days where a dwarf warrior had access to Resist Missile, but that means they're even better at early game rushes because towers aren't as big a threat.

-Thieves only need to put 5 points into double-dealer to get a massive +100% chance to siphon resources.  I can't think of a more powerful passive skill; mages need to pump 30+ points into their passives for a much smaller return.

-Demolition and Assassinate are great skills, but they get pretty outrageous pretty quickly.  Enter the Orc assassin that can kill shot both units and buildings with max attack speed and no investment in damage.  (Thank you for taking demolition off of bows -- orc ranger was fun for a few hours, but it felt dirty.)

-Last suggestion - on-hit spellcasting items.  Is there a plan to change or restructure this?  It'd be a nightmare to program, but it'd be cool to have a cooldown that can be used once every few minutes, possibly added to the little spellcasting bar (which I love btw).  That way it wouldn't be based on spamming max attack speed.

Game-breaking items that come to mind are the glaciate orb and the life ward helmet, along with a few others.  These items usually punish casters pretty harshly.  I will argue that Magery helps keep casters at a safer distance, and nobody says you can't invest in Dex as a caster and spam glaciate yourself.

I love the new spell spheres and rebalances - contagion and poison are actually desirable spheres now, and chaos is a lot of fun, taking the best elements of the old-school illusion magic and putting it in a more appropriate school.  Geomancy is badass, and home-guard is one of my new favorite spells too.  Undead Runemaster has been one of the better classes we've played.  Even archmage feels like it's in a good spot again.  

I can't make a druid good for the life of me, but I probably just suck at the game and need to think outside the box.  Summon animal cracks me up, but seems like it's only geared only to minotaurs or making people laugh.
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Pretty outlandish suggestion, but "drafting" skills and making custom classes would let people make a lot more viable builds.  Say we split the skills into Warrior / Rogue / Merchant / Spellcaster type, it'd almost be like picking your Major Skills in Oblivion.  The way I imagine it, and I'm sure you guys have better ideas, but you might have 3-4 "Class" points to use which let you choose 2 skills from that category.  That way you could focus on making a pure fighter, pure caster, or a hybrid like paladin / deathknight.

Say I make a (XX) Warrior, (XX) Spellcaster, I could choose Ferocity, Invulnerability, Lore, and Healing.  Then the remaining skills you can pick from a pool of larger ones, and that could be your race-specific or supporting skills.

Right now I like how no race has an innate spell sphere, because those were off balance - everyone is a solid choice, especially with one casting support skill, such as ritual / energy / lore.  Letting the player choose between these 3 might allow more flexibility too.  Undead used to be a better candidate for caster but I feel like they're bogged down with a lot of optional / situational skills.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:45 pm

Thank you for the feedback, it's very helpful as we were having similar discussions. Already in 0.8.8 the glaciate item was nerfed and all spells cast by items now have ten time (x10) more recovery time and they are not triggered by attacking neutral buildings. Assassinate is now dependant on the victim's health, so you must first weaken the unit's hp before having a chance to assassinate it.

Idea I do envision a customize class button in the hero creation screen now that I think about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:31 pm

Patrick_the_Winekiller wrote:
Idea I do envision a customize class button in the hero creation screen now that I think about it.

This so much please! I wanted an editor.exe just to change those skills I didn't see fit, but if this can be done in game, would be an awesome revolution. Thinking about it, the only thing I miss from WBC2 is the suggested idea of first choosing a branch, then its extensions; it gave me more an RPG feeling than starting off with a pre-determined asset of skills, chosen from the start and without possible changes after that.

So to say, one could choose from these 4 main classes, each one giving 2 unreplaceable skills. Other 2 unreplaceable skills are granted from the race. And then, the other 6 would be customizable by the button in the selection screen (maybe spending big crowns or other things), or when leveling up only. This could give much more RPG customizing then having to choose the pre-determined mix right as it is now, always having to deal with a skill or two you don't care about; at the same time, one could also choose the magic spheres of his choice without having to accept that every other skill sucks (for his gameplay style, or for the kind of hero character he wants). For example the old vanilla summoner+pyromancer isn't possible anymore (without using item sets, at least), and that was my favourite.

Furthermore, if the number of skills could go up from 10 to 12 by programming, race and class could grant 3 skills each, instead of 2 (6 of your choose is already enough, and in this case we would so have 6 set and 6 chosen, perfect balance). This would be just to caliber more the importance of race and class choice, that I think shall be kept nonetheless, without having to give up on the importance of the personal skills choice. Every unbalance of the hero could be fixed by nerfing some skills or by buffing a little the army (increasing level cap of the units is already an example). This will also make creating new original skills having more sense, and those new skills could be also used to differentiate the races or the classes (Ferocity is right for a warrior, but maybe a paladin could have minus combat but more damage per hit in the same skill? Like "Skilled Fighter" = +1 combat & +1 damage instead of Ferocity +3 combat. And so on for races, so to differentiate them).

Gamechanging idea imho. Surely would take in again lots of people who played vanilla game but are bored right of now, as it is a big innovation and almost sounds like an evolution of what the RPG hero progression system would have been in a WBC4. More choice for the player, and the choice was the main strong point of the series (12 races to choose was a dream for all of us at that time... But even today xD)
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:21 am

I like this idea! I think it would really help to present new options, keep the game fresh and trim the insane number of hero classes down a wee bit (there's currently 33!).
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:16 am

Joe the Bartender wrote:
I like this idea! I think it would really help to present new options, keep the game fresh and trim the insane number of hero classes down a wee bit (there's currently 33!).

Do you think that this partial skills choice will be doable for 0.8.8?
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:26 am

a personalized skill set? it would be amazing, in that way you can make a real full warrior mage with boosted troops, i'd love that hybryd class.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:36 am

Also I believe it would be very beautiful to talk about the same race/class choosing, knowing that the heroes won't be the same. For example my dark elf assassin could know summoning and have his playstyle (more xp to units, army summoning), while your dark elf assassin could be a melee warrior with high damage, demolition and so on. Would add plenty of variations without having to create 50+ different classes; there could be 20 for example, so 40 fixed skills for them (if we choose 2 as granted by class) and 24 for the 12 races (if we choose 2 as granted by race). Every other skill (but also some of the race/class ones) can be chosen by the player from a large pool to personalize his hero, and this pool will depend from the race+class combo.
So if we do 2+2+6, the race could grant 2 fixed skills and a pool of 10 possible choices, while the class could grant 2 fixed skills and a pool of 20 possible choices. So the remaining 6 skills could be chosen by this pool made of 10+20 skills, minus the shared ones. This system would so be an hybrid progression from WBC2 (which I preferred for the "specialization" feeling) and WBC3 (in which I only preferred the bigger number of choices). So it's like to apply the best of WBC3 to the better system of WBC2.
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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:19 pm

How do you think the actual pools should look like? What skills should they contain precisely?

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PostSubject: Re: Hero Classes and Skills   Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:03 pm

Patrick_the_Winekiller wrote:
How do you think the actual pools should look like? What skills should they contain precisely?

Sorta of WBC2 system; the result would be defined by the race/class choice. For example I wouldn't give the Necromancy choice to a Knight Paladin, so that wouldn't be in the Knight Paladin pool for the 6 choice (even less in the 2+2 fixed combination). That's if we "attach" Necromancy impossibility to Paladin and not to Knight; in this case, a Knight Thief for example, could learn Necromancy in the 6 pool. I believe for a balance question and not too strict choices, every race should access every magic sphere, in which only the class will be limitative. Can't say the same for other skills, so would be right to not let the Knight choose, in the final 6 choices from the pool, "Slimemaster" for example. Slimemaster could be a racial skill of the race Plaguelord, who in change couldn't choose "Life Rune" and so on. So the magic sphere would be decided only by classes (the professions of WBC2); what a Knight could be, it's decided by his choice in the class. If he chooses Mage class, for example, he could access to Divination, Arcane, Chronomancy, Healing. If he chooses Wizard, he could access Pyro, Cryo. If he chooses Paladin would access to Healing, Alchemy and others reliable to Paladin, while as Tinker Alchemy, Rune magic. But a Knight can't be a Summoner as class, so he'll never access to Necro or summon or venom or contagion spheres. An Undead, instead, could be Summoner and access to these, but will never be a Paladin so won't have access to healing sphere.
However, some races could grant the fixed possibility, in the 6 final pool by choice, to get a magic sphere. So for example Undead will ALWAYS have the POSSIBILITY to access necro in the final 6 (necro not set by default in the 2 starting skills, that in Undead could be Shadow Strenght and Memories so to say, but can be chosen by the player in the 6 final pool), even if the Undead is a Chieftain (that won't be a class who gives necromancy in the 6 pool).
I'll do a recap to explain better what I think.



So the developers will have to choose: first 2 fixed skills for every race, and 2 fixed skills for every profession (they may grant synergy bonus if shared, but this bonus won't be obtainable from the same skill chosen by the player consequently - so synergy bonus will only be possible for fixed skills, aka race+class combo). Then the developers will choose what pool choices each race and profession will grant, considering both lore and gameplay balance. Finally it would be implemented as level up mechanic... If possible xD and people will be free to custom more their heroes.
Also, if devs or betatest show that a first release of this system is gamebreaking in some extent, we can work out for the subsequent release the skills themselves (nerfed or buffed where needed), or can shift to a 3+3+4 system to give more importance to race/class instead of player choices, thus limiting OP hero creations too. Or even 3+3+6, if you think that skills number could go up by programming and would be an appreciate feature by the players.

P.S.: if devs are too busy with other stuff, I myself can do this fixed skill tab and pool choices (will require some weeks for balancing). Then Joe could study this base balance and modify accordingly (I'm assuming he's the Keeper of Balance!).
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