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Onimenokatana
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PostSubject: Bugs and balancing   Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:29 pm

Hi, I was doing a list of bugs and balance changes I would make, but since an hotfix will be released this weekend I supposed I'd done better to post it now and upgrade it as I found new things, so maybe something can make its way in 0.8.7.
The balancing list is still a work in progress, as I'm testing with skirmishes race by race (actually I'm at Minotaurs in order of selecting the race in a skirmish). I'll upgrade it as testing goes on.

BUGS (Win10, comp XP3, run as admin)
1. - Each level up heroes gain 2 level (not intended) but 5 points (as intended)
2. - Upon exiting the inventory window opened on a treasure chest, if you have an item that gives +mana, even without touching the equipment the mana starts to recharge from the points it would be without that item (if you have 50 mana and an item with +40, when entering the inventory on a chest and exiting, mana starts recharging from 50 even if you didn't move the +40 item)
3. - Spellbook can't be reached from the lightning icon near the building icon when the hero is selected, it's grey (but you can through the icon in the portrait) unless you have items that grants proficiency in another sphere of magic
4. - Garrisoning unit icons are often duplicated. For example a tower with two archers shows four archers inside (they're still two when they exit the tower), at least after reloading a saved game
5. - Spoils of war screen shouldn't suddenly appear over the retinue one but be loaded as separate, or show up after it. Sometimes there's a lag where the two screens are mixed or the spoils of war one shows up late, case in which clicking on the okay button may happen in the same second as the screen showing up, thus losing it entirely
6. - Freezes during battle (no CTD, but black screen), the game won't close on command and the screen remains the same even being capable of moving the mouse upon the icons in the bottom Windows taskbar (but can't switch to other applications, screen remains freezed, may only disconnect/restart pc)
7. - CTD when selecting repeatedly the daemonic voice of the hero (casual)
8. - Once had this kind of bug, leaving the building to build even if unselecting the builder (as you can see I have no one selected). Then it remains this way until you save & reload.
Screenshot here:
 
9. - Cruiser ship has the same description of the Scoutship in the frame above
10. - Reloading a game with command radius activated before quitting (r on keyboard) doesn't show up the circle sorrounding the hero anymore (have to click again r two times)
11. - I experienced a couple of CTD during Defend Kalpaxotl mission against the Empire on Hard C. Campaign, the difficulty of the mission was at Insane level. After the beginning I didn't experienced other CTD, maybe because enemy's retinue was entirely killed; however the problem is that after the victory, I returned to the TPC Campaign map and not the C. Campaign! When returning on the C. Campaign, the Defend Kalpaxotl mission was not done and I have to redo it

BALANCING
1. - Having electrical damage, Paladin should have a sparkling sword
2. - Kobold Sniper doesn't have a long reach anymore, should modify the description during battle (maybe even the name) or turn back to a long reach
3. - Doom Knights cost pretty much, I believe their damage is too poor for being the ultimate Undead unit. They're 1 AP, but their production costs. Should have at least +10 damage
4. - Dwarf Infantry is too strong for being a base unit, unlike other races. Should be worked on until the new damage types will be implemented
5. - Horde upgrades from the Barbarian Chieftain's Hut don't seem to work, also they talk about army limit and not the new food system (like a Dark Dwarves building and the Empire research Supply of the Granary)
6. - Minotaur King is like a second hero on you side, or a third, a fourth... Should have at least -100 hp, -10 damage, +5 armor & resistance
7. - Minotaur & Dwarves Axe Thrower counts in a tower as a melee unit instead of ranged (don't know if intended)
8. - I believe Wood Elves are the most complete race in the game, maybe too balanced; they have cures, lots of units, 4 different builders (Ancient Treant shouldn't have the building ability, they're already strong on their own)... I love them because of their versatility, but nonetheless I admit they should be nerfed


Last edited by Onimenokatana on Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:11 pm; edited 9 times in total
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Kharn
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:25 pm

Bugs:
1 and 2 initially appear fixed for the upcoming hotfix - we're just testing it some more.
4 is known and multiplayer issues (6) have always plagued the game. But through every version of The Protectors, multiplayer gets a little better.

Balance:
1 was intentional to help distinguish Paladins from Cavaliers, as well as giving Knights another elemental attacking unit.
2: I keep meaning to correct this and get reminded every time I see the unit, but always forget by the time I finish the battle.
6: Minotaur Kings have earned themselves quite a reputation from our internal multiplayer games - but the main issue seems to be more to do with starting with them. (Same with Giants) At 12 points each, a typical 50 point game allows the player to start with 4 of them, which can be too much at such an early stage of the game. And if your Hero has items that given him additional starting points......
7 was a side effect of removing their missile unit tag (so they don't get penalized in melee combat). There has been some discussion as to whether there should be an exception to this when they garrison a tower (so the projectile changes despite being a "melee" unit).
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:04 pm

Thanks for the answer Kharn. Bug 6 was referred to singleplayer however (I never played multi). I remember it happening once by taking a quest at the Mausoleum; I save at each start game, so I could replicate it and for 2 times it freezed the screen again, so I kept refreshing the quest and with the next one, no more problem.
Balance 1 I think at least the Paladin sword should have an sparking effect or so on to justify it, the idea of making another elemental unit is good, but seeing him as other knights makes you wonder why Smile
For 2 I suppose, because you can't alt+tab without glitching, you should do as I did for writing this list... To write the bug/balancing/suggestion each time saving, going to the file and restarting the game Very Happy quite annoying I know!
7 would be good, cause Minotaurs have only the Shaman who can range-garrison, but expecially not until lv5 Keep. So would be good to insert another ranged unit, also to differentiate it from the basic infantry Minotaur.
6 should be worked on definitely, I think it's the most powerful unit in the entire game after Titans & Dragons. Having a MK at lv20 is like having a well leveled warrior hero in your retinue, who can cast fear, ignore armor and eat animals however
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:15 am

Onimenokatana wrote:
6. - Freezes during battle (no CTD)
This might be unique to Windows 10 or it could be its version of a CTD. I've only ever had CTDs on Win 7 x64.

Onimenokatana wrote:
1. - I think at least the Paladin sword should have an sparking effect or so on to justify it
At some point I'd like to see this done, just depends how much time I get and how difficult the job is going to be. It's lower priority than other tasks so I'd probably be handling those first before I got to this.

Onimenokatana wrote:
3. - Doom Knights cost pretty much, I believe their damage is too poor for being the ultimate Undead unit. Should have at least +10 damage
This is because they're 1AP units, and one of the most efficient 1AP units in the game. The only comparison is situational, such as Druids, Goblin Shamans, Minotaur Shamans, Contaminators and Liches. There has been some debate as to whether they should become 2AP units, but that would cause problems. There are a couple ways of doing it:
* The first one is that Dread Knights can morph into Doom Knights regardless of food. This may be dangerous because it would allow the Undead to keep 'producing' units even in starvation.
* The other is that the morph could be restricted when in starvation, but this could be seen as unfair or harsh in certain circumstances.

Onimenokatana wrote:
4. - Dwarf Infantry is too strong for being a base unit, unlike other races
I agree, I think their resistance needs some editing. I think the Dwarf Infantry and a couple other units would become much more balanced when new damage types are implemented.

Onimenokatana wrote:
5. - Horde upgrades from the Barbarian Chieftain's Hut don't seem to work, also they talk about army limit and not the new food system
I think Horde needs to get changed to do something different and unique. At the moment, it's just boring and doesn't even end the game despite being end-game research.

Onimenokatana wrote:
6. - Minotaur King is like a second hero on you side, or a third, a fourth... Should have at least -100 hp, -10 damage, +5 armor & resistance
I think it's the Fear that's doing it, otherwise Kings could easily get demolished by loads of weenies. An ASP cost increase should sort it, same for Giants.

Onimenokatana wrote:
7. - Minotaur Axe Thrower counts in a tower as a melee unit instead of ranged (don't know if intended)
iirc this is a bug, Ranged units should be able to change tower projectiles like Missile units.
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:28 am

Thanks Joe for the reply. I'll keep posting whenever I find something playing each race. Is there a list of the future things you'll do like the new damage types? Would love to know more about your vision of the game until v1.0, also to see if I can imagine more appropriate suggestions with it or if I have the knowledge to help in any task listed
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:56 am

I see you've added another bug - the purple grid is a new feature, allowing mappers and players to see exactly what's blocked and how much room they are leaving between objects. If you're not happy with it, you can disable it in the options menu (or limit it to just the editor).

But it disappearing between game without adjusting the options is a bug - I encountered that yesterday.

Oh and I still forgot to sort our the Kobold Sniper! I was going to do it right after I read your post!!!

Well I've gone and done it just now! Consider this finally done.
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:49 am

Lol, I'll be reminded as Kharn reminder! So the Sniper got again his range or the description now is changed (rhyme not intended)?
Yes I know of the new feature (love it, very very useful), but in this case it's a bug because the builder wasn't selected anymore and still the grid wouldn't disappear, even clicking Esc or right click (however other buttons were clickable even with the grid still showing, so I could save and restart the game).
For the balancing, I played Minotaurs and Orcs today and found no problem other than those already listed before, which I noticed playing against them. Already started a Skirmish with High Elves, but quitted for going forward with the translation (I'm at half of the XCIStrings and completed CreateHeroHelp and KeyMap)
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:08 am

Oh I see - but the grid gets displayed when ever you have something on your cursor to place on the map (not just when you are trying to build in general). The real issue here is that you have a building ready to place down but no one to build it.

Considering there's a Shrine in that picture, would I be right in assuming you had the building ready to place down (attached to cursor) and then you visited the Shrine to complete a quest, which then locked the building to your cursor?
In which case we've already got this bug logged and will one day be looked into. (I have a lovely picture of my Swamp Dragon looking as if it's going to build a tower Very Happy )
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:25 am

Honestly I don't remember Kharn, but it could be. In that case good to know it's covered Very Happy it happened to me only one time however, so shouldn't be a big problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:50 am

Oh sorry - I was referring to an internal TPC development document that has it logged. I'm certain this bug report isn't public knowledge... well, it wasn't public knowledge till now. Very Happy

Perhaps future versions of The Protectors should come with a "Known bugs" .txt ?
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:48 pm

Is that like the bug where the player can get non-builder units and heroes to build any building?

Onimenokatana wrote:
Is there a list of the future things you'll do like the new damage types? Would love to know more about your vision of the game until v1.0
A list of things that might get implemented:

  • New damage types in: Acid, Spiritual and Divine
  • New spell spheres in: Storm Magic, Corruption Magic, Hydromancy and Contagion Magic
  • A redone Chaos Magic, Rune Magic, Time Magic and maybe Arcane Magic, with plenty of new spells and alterations
  • A 'Global' spell type, which effect the whole map. A timer would be displayed in a corner with a side-colour indicator. Would be nice to see spell details when hovered over. Disenchant then becomes a considerably more useful spell too as a side bonus
  • New hero classes in the Rogue, Wizard, Pirate, an unnamed Runemaster/Warrior hybrid and a new alternate resource merchant specialising in Gold and Stone, all with some new skills abilities etc
  • New class and race specific perks with awesome and unique effects
  • Proficiencies changed into 'Factions' instead, which does approximately the same thing but is race-specific instead. This would also be significant in the campaigns, where some factions of a race could like you whilst others despise you despite being of same race. Factions may also determine unit alignment. Wood Elves largely to become Good, Orcs largely to become Neutral
  • A proper diplomacy tab where players can strike bargains with each other and change alliances. Hero portraits and faction insignia will also be displayed alongside the side colour
  • 8 player capacity, maybe even more!
  • New Undead building style (Graveyard, Black Library and Deathkeep)
  • Special message when a Dragon is produced, much like a Titan
  • Towers may not be buildable within a certain number of squares of each other to help stop Ranged>Melee abuse and uselessly extending game time
  • When the player goes into starvation, unit production will pause to help stop instantaneous recoveries
  • Towers and maybe keep buildings fire multiple lower damage projectiles. Putting missile units in adds another projectile of that type and damage. Kinda similar in function to Age of Empires 2
  • Fully customizable mini-hero retinue units which take the place of Generals. The old Generals will then likely become producible elites. These mini-heroes would have their own skills, damage types, skins (well, recolours) and command radii
  • A Resurrection production available at the main keep building which resurrects heroes and the aforementined mini-hero retinue units (retinue units don't leave the hero's Retinue on death, only on replacement or deletion). Cost increases for each time the unit or hero has died previously and possibly also depending on their level. I can explain more in-depth as to the reasons why this would be extensively beneficial over the current ham-fisted General conversion method
  • New, pretty selection rings just for heroes and mini-hero retinue units. After deselection these rings only become darker, making it easy to see if they're selected and also which units are heroes
  • Better experience gaining system, stat bonus system and extended max unit level to 50 using Platinum badges
  • Flexy resolutions!
  • Vastly improved UI!
  • New menu and UI graphics
  • A 'select idle converter' button if needed. There may be little portraits of the mini heroes going down a side of the screen instead
  • A 'Mastery' army limit, just for summoned units. This fixes the infamous 'Stacks' problem
  • A new Boat limit, just for the boats
  • Capability to destroy rally points
  • Mana and Health Potions becoming part of the Army Setup Points system instead of being available from the get-go
  • Some kind of Barbarian spellcaster unit
  • A Ghost Dragon and Bone Dragon unit. The Dragonliche would then become a particularly powerful spellcaster dragon which needs to be morphed into (something like Bone > Ghost > Liche? Or Bone > Ghost or Liche). This ability would likely be unique to the Undead
  • New units for the Plaguelords and Dragonlords
  • A Centaur unit for the Fey, replacing the Banshee
  • New models for: Antharg, Swordsman, Bane, Lion Throne, Minotaur units, Banshee, Vampire and Grond
  • Skull of Sartek turned into actual Sartek with a new deliciously brutal model, covered in his dead victims, drenched in blood and wearing garments woven out of skin
  • The 4 Mages getting renamed to adhere more to lore
  • So many changes to the Plaguelords, new skills, abilities etc. I can explain this one in more detail too! Very Happy
  • Dryad and Ancient Treant getting swapped around, Dryad essentially becoming the second Wood Elven spellcaster, comparable to the Ice Maiden and Spider Priestess
  • A Wood Elven henge building replacing the White Tree
  • The production menu getting changed into spheres hovering around the production building like in LOTR BFME 2, eliminating a need for the build menu. Production info could appear in the info panel, which would only appear when hovering over an entity in the game (this is what that white translucent panel at the top of the screen would turn into)
  • Individual unit armour/resistance, likely to occur with the arrival of the new damage types
  • Orc Prison likely to be exchanged with a different building. Also no Orc Slavehorde
  • Loads of new Campaign locations derived from the Warlords games, essentially filling the game with official lore and multiplying map detail like six times over
  • Items pretty much like in Baldur's Gate, new slots, proper inventory, two handed stuff, missile weapons, new potions, scrolls etc
  • Something I'd like to see but would probably be impossible: Terrain 'Levels', as seen in Age of Wonders. This would mean battles could take place over caves AND in caves at the same time on another terrain level! I don't recall any other RTS to fully do this kind of thing, so if this can be done, The Protectors would be one of the first if not the first ever! I can describe this in more detail too if wanted
  • Practically indefinite quest improvements, where quests change your hero psychology, have actual effects past completion and more (If for example you build a home for an Imp, that building could be renamed after the Imp and change sides to an ‘allied neutral’ side which could be referred to as the Quest side. If the building comes under attack, it could spawn the Imp itself to defend it! It could sort of work like a garrison. This is exactly the sort of thing needed to make Quests that bit more meaningful)
  • New racial music tracks!
  • 'Real' shops. Can be described in more detail if wanted
  • 'The Pantheon' System, where players may appease or fight against gods. This would also take an active role in skirmishes, where a god which is particularly angry with you could send an avatar in the form of a powerful dragon to destroy you when you least expect it! Messages detailing these random events would be necessary and a button to turn it off would be good if wanted. This is far from worked out yet!
  • Loads of new weather types from acid rain to a blood moon! These would be spell-specific
  • The current races to become incredibly unique. For example: 'Minotaurs get a new resource called ‘Rage’ instead of having their current 'pillage' bonus. This resource slowly trickles up and is generated by the player’s kills. Certain special skills and spells can cost this resource, so the Minotaurs can keep getting more and more angry!'
  • Awesome new campaign features, can go into more detail if wanted
  • Cult of Duernoth is getting a new version with new narration
  • A new Dragon name set
  • Armour items which give armour against specific damage types
  • Plenty of new recoloured hero avatars where races would share them, and new ones besides
  • New 'Solar Beam' projectile image
  • Almost completely redone hero selection and creation menus which make it easier to select heroes and provides a lovely description to each race, faction, hero class etc with accompanying racial pics. See something along the lines of Age of Wonders
  • Cosmetic alteration option in campaign
  • Skill point redistribution option in campaign
  • New afflictions such as Bleeding, Nausea, Confusion/Insanity, Paralysis, Mute (blocks a unit's special actions) and maybe even Sleep
  • mana-less 'spells' which instead use the cooldown timer (should already be doable using the Recovery timer). This is super useful for new martial 'spell' spheres, the Warlord's Warcry spell and the Goblin Chieftain's Goblin Horde spell
  • Special, unique and rare diseases which do different things
  • Units which can inflict more than 1 affliction
  • Proper cursed items which come unidentified and can't be unequipped without aid from a special spell or campaign locations
  • New naval units, particularly for the Plague
  • Fire Elementals and a couple other floating units able to move over Lava
  • A new 'Sky' tileset set in the realm of the pantheon, to be seen in a Duernothian Cult prequel!
  • Rebalanced mines so that level 1 mines don't outperform level 3 mines with just a couple builders in it
  • Observation slots/choice in multiplayer
  • Other units such as Giants and T Rexes able to feed on critters
  • New Horse critter
  • Unique tier 1 and 2 fliers
  • A new research which prevents players from curing Poison/Disease for the Dark Elves, Swarm or Plaguelords
  • The hero skill Virulence should decrease the time required for Disease to have effect rather than increase its strength. If a player wanted to increase its strength, they’d just build more Plague Piles!
  • Support for longer hero & retinue unit names and commas
  • A new host of targetable spells such as Fireball
  • When clicking on the building you want to build, it should show the ghosts of all buildings that are planned so that you don’t accidentally overlap anything. Also would be useful to see allied plans highlighted in blue
  • Being able to queue greyed out stuff so that when you do get the resources, it starts production immediately (particularly useful with building upgrades)
  • Rotating production line - if you can’t produce something, it should rotate to the next item etc until it can produce one of them
  • Unique AI heroes with specific names, stats etc. Will likely only be done when heroes have settled
  • New spell effects, screen shake for the more powerful ones
  • Bigger map sizes!
  • Mixed resource mines (such as mines producing both Metal and Stone at a lower rate for example)
  • Fully functioning Ferry and transport units
  • New and enhanced blood & gore
  • New random map maker schemes, including WBC1 and WBC2 tiles
  • New tiles, crossover tiles between WBC3, 2 and 1
  • Multiplayer co-op campaigns and chapters
  • Multiplayer saves
  • Game stats mid-game (units killed etc)
  • An improved after-battle overview, see LOTR BFME 2
  • Awesome new Utility buildings which change unit stats or whatnot for whoever owns them
  • Fixed non-standard victory game types
  • Recoloured & altered units and buildings so they fit their races better
  • Fixed conflict between Frost Dragon Lair and Dragon Temple
  • New custom campaigns and chapters
  • A special Conquest campaign as seen in WBC2
  • A way to show multiple afflictions on one unit


That massive list should incorporate most ideas we've got for new, altered and fixed features we may or may not see in the future. Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:29 pm

Joe the Bartender wrote:
we may or may not will see in the future. Cool

Fix'd Laughing

They're all awesome affraid this game gonna be epic! I like a lot the idea of taking the best from AoE2, AoM and others to implement it in what I think is the quintessence of strategy rpg. And I didn't think you guys were so good at programming! affraid
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:31 pm

Also feel free to explain better when you say you could, I'm very interested. But maybe in another topic, just to leave bugs and talk about suggestions Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:15 am

Onimenokatana wrote:
didn't think you guys were so good at programming!
Some of the stuff on that list will no doubt be implemented in future but much of it may likely just be wild and fanciful ideas sadly.
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:22 am

I would be very happy if even half of the list will be implemented, being them all good changes
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PostSubject: Re: Bugs and balancing   Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:18 am

Joe the Bartender wrote:
Onimenokatana wrote:
didn't think you guys were so good at programming!
Some of the stuff on that list will no doubt be implemented in future but much of it may likely just be wild and fanciful ideas sadly.

If we are talking about wild ideas. I would definitively like to see thin spell bar in interface. Instead of opening spell bok every time, there would be just iconcs of spells and you could broswe between avaible spell schools. Even better would be if there were few empty slots where you could put in your favourite spells.

Also I would like to see more hero resources and active abilties like warrior abilities using rage or merchant abilities using trade power.
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