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 What ideal map for multi should be?

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matiqba
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PostSubject: What ideal map for multi should be?   Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:35 pm

Hi!

Ima love making maps for WB3. I was curious what in your opinion good VS map should have. So i have few questions:
As i come from starcraft i willl use sc terminology.
-How big easy acces mines should be? I usually try to mak lvl3 main and lvl2-3 natural + 4 places to fight for containing 2 lvl2 mines
-Defences in base. How hard should it be to do some early aggresion in main/natural? Usually i try to give 1 tower in natural. In main i give either 2 towers near mines and 1 near enterance to main or 1 tower in mines and more defences on boarders.
-shrines and other buildings. Personally i avoid using those buildings what u thing of them in 1v1 or 2v2?
-area in main to build. I tend to give at least 4x4 squares in main to give enought building space. Enought/too much ?
-I like to give relativly easy acces to harass natural and at leat 2 ways to atac main.
-as I test most maps with AI i tend to put flags near mines and set exposed map with fog of war. Should i keep or change it?
-Is there a easy way to set spectator? like giving only one player full viev? Tried with some events but always failed.

I would be glad and thankfull for any opinions and help in improving my map creation. Already posted some of my maps. Trying to improve them and making new. Will post when i got like 10 ima proud of.
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Patrick_the_Winekiller
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PostSubject: Re: What ideal map for multi should be?   Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:20 pm

Hello,

I am really happy to see such a discussion rising. Here's my personal opinion for vs maps:

1. Starting level 3 mines of each type and maybe secondary level 1 easy access ones. Hardly accessible center point (or 2 points for big maps) with either more mines or preferably special utilities (shrines, shops, temples -dragon temples especially), rare mines, etc.

2. Defense in main base should never be one sided. One main chuck point and an alternate route is the minimum. Open field is better for big maps where maneuvering and logistics is more important (and army can get too big to chuckle it in a gap - annoying and undesirable).

3. 3x3 empty terrain tiles (no features or obstructions) is a minimum imo. 4x4 is superb. Note that base sizes are related to maximum keep level. The higher the restriction, the smaller the base will generally be (shorter variety of buildings available).

4. Flags might induce confusion in the player especially with the newer implementations in version 0.8.8 of Conquest and King of the Hill game modes. I would only use flags in special missions, scripted scenarios etc.

5. You can use nis command to give a player the farseeing research, so he sees all the map. If you truly want spectator mode, as in the player is defeated and can only see what the others are doing, then an instant defeat event will do the job (upon defeat the player may choose to spectate with CTRL+O).

I am eagerly awaiting your map pack. It sounds promising. bounce

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Joe the Bartender
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PostSubject: Re: What ideal map for multi should be?   Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:26 am

matiqba wrote:

-How big easy acces mines should be? I usually try to mak lvl3 main and lvl2-3 natural + 4 places to fight for containing 2 lvl2 mines
For me it depends more on the size of the map. On smaller maps I tend to use fewer, higher level mines whilst on large ones I put in more lower level ones. For starting mines I tend to use lvl3 and like Pat if possible I'll also put in lvl1 easy access. I tend to increment the mine lvls and utility power towards the centre of the map or evenly distribute them between players (I mean directly in-between them, not within their base. These utilities or mines can create points on the map to contest over).

matiqba wrote:

-Defences in base. How hard should it be to do some early aggresion in main/natural? Usually i try to give 1 tower in natural. In main i give either 2 towers near mines and 1 near enterance to main or 1 tower in mines and more defences on boarders.
matiqba wrote:

-I like to give relativly easy acces to harass natural and at leat 2 ways to atac main.
Pretty much what Pat said. At least 2 entry points, 3 would be best and at least one of those should be from an opposite direction. For caverns, I'd recommend at least 3 because fliers can't go through the void. I tend to put down 2 starting Towers on my maps - 1 each guarding a couple of entry points at the front and 0 guarding any possible back-entrance. A third one could be good for natural depending on the map. Smaller maps won't like it as much as bigger imo.

matiqba wrote:

-shrines and other buildings. Personally i avoid using those buildings what u thing of them in 1v1 or 2v2?
I'd go with Temples-only for competitive, as they are by far the most balanced. I think you're right to avoid Quest buildings, Lairs and some of the other utilities. Shops might be alright too but only if players don't have any Crowns (or perhaps the No Hero Items option will turn them off?). Buying potions from Shops should be alright so long as the Shop is neutral to all players but items will likely create a small amount of imbalance. Stuff like the Healing Fountain and Chaos Gate are meant for special scenarios and campaigns and the Mystic Tower & Prison changes in power too much from race to race.

matiqba wrote:

-area in main to build. I tend to give at least 4x4 squares in main to give enought building space. Enought/too much ?
I'm not entirely in-tune with competitive base spacing but as far as I can tell that should be enough. I usually go with 4x4+ or a feature-restricted area approximate to that.

matiqba wrote:

-as I test most maps with AI i tend to put flags near mines and set exposed map with fog of war. Should i keep or change it?
I do this too, but only if the mines are a little harder to locate than normal. If the player can see them easily upon spawn then it should be ok. I think Exposed Map + Fog of War is the best setting too! However, I would let the user set those and leave the map at predefined map vision settings. Some may not like those settings and they would have to keep changing them every time they want to play on the map.
Patrick_the_Winekiller wrote:

4. Flags might induce confusion in the player especially with the newer implementations in version 0.8.8 of Conquest and King of the Hill game modes. I would only use flags in special missions, scripted scenarios etc.
That could be a problem. If that's the case, is there anything I could use to replace their role? I think the only map I've done this with is Streets of Lysea so it should be very easy to fix.

matiqba wrote:

I would be glad and thankfull for any opinions and help in improving my map creation. Already posted some of my maps. Trying to improve them and making new. Will post when i got like 10 ima proud of.
I think details and 'classic' and/or original designs make maps more memorable. Maps which tend to have plenty of special tiles & features, such as grass plants, trees, rocks  - and good use of those too, can be more fun to play. Likewise, using tiles and features in new ways is a nice touch. Original maps tend to get played more because there's nothing else like them. However, I find there are some maps which have few details but are still really fun to play just because the map design is so imaginative or insightful. For example, I really like Wheel of Fortune despite it having no actual detail. The map relies on its gameplay alone and imo it delivers it in spades. There are many different options to choose from, so many different strategies are viable and to top it off there are lots of entertaining conflict points not only around the centre but between the players too. I think this is a map that really makes players think when they play, but also one which can be enjoyed with its simple and elegant design. In my books I would call this one a classic.
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matiqba
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PostSubject: HI again   Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:35 am

Still working Smile Hope I can post my maps this week havelike 8-9 im happy about:) I have one question about special buildingslike runesor orb of sight. I tried to find any information about them but couldn't. Have anyone link to changelogs or other source where I can find some info? Already checked changelogs available at:http://www.moddb.com/games/the-protectors/articles

Btw what do u think about special buildings like Healing fountain and Mistic tower?
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PostSubject: Re: What ideal map for multi should be?   Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:42 am

matiqba wrote:
I have one question about special buildingslike runesor orb of sight.
They are campaign-specific structures which serve no purpose outside their missions.

matiqba wrote:

Btw what do u think about special buildings like Healing fountain and Mistic tower?
If you're making a balanced map(s), avoid them like the plague. The Healing Fountain gives a bonus only to Good sides whilst the Mystic Tower's powerups vary wildly in power from race to race.
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PostSubject: Link to map pack   Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:43 am

Hi again Smile

Not shure where to post so will link there for now.
My map pack-> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B274KFGacyDVY1BJa2VTd3VOX0k

Pack contain 10 maps
1v1:

Chaos Lycea - map I saw on online turnament couldnt find working download so recreated.

Devil's Habitat - magma scenery, medium large map.

Dragon Island - grass scenery, medium large map with island-like middle containing Dragon Shrine.

Dragon Shrine - snowy, medium large map with vale containing Dragon Shrine and some highground around.

Purgatory Forest - small grass map with demon and angel temple.

Sands od Annan - small desert/dirt map.

Wealthy Forest - Big grass map, similar to Chaos Lycea but with more resources and some mistic towers. High eco.

Forgotten Land 2v2 - Medium cave map for 2v2 games.

Volcanos 2v2 - Big lava based map with more resources and Temples to fight for. For 2v2 games.

Ice Pact 3v3 - Big snowy map for 3v3 games.

Waiting for sugestions and opinions.
Have Fun testing Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What ideal map for multi should be?   Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:04 am

They seem pretty fair. May we use some of them in our next release? Giving credits where is due, of course.

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PostSubject: Re: What ideal map for multi should be?   Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:16 am

I'd like to add my 2 cents to this discussion (didn't check out the maps yet, I feel I'm too noob to play multi).

What I noticed (especially if you're playing against AI) is that having a lot of areas that are higher than regular ground ends up with some weird ass stuff.

Pure AI often bugs out and their hero starts walking back and forth doing nothing if there are melee units on higher ground and a tower nearby. Same happens if you A click an area (a very useful but sadly fairly inefficient way to move armies as they often start stacking up with each other, not attacking and blocking paths).

Case in point: one of the Dragon Islands (Maze?) maps in C. Campaign, I think, the second treasure hunt. Place a tower near the starting point where the stone and iron mines are and a melee unit near the stone mine. AI stops doing everything and starts wildly flailing back and forth. I've killed a level 20 Warrior with a Pikeman and a Tower that way.

While in Multi this wouldn't be too much of a problem, I would advise against putting higher ground close to bases as it will lead to frustration. Also, higher ground is often a pretty big tactical advantage so I imagine if you placed it somewhere around the middle and a mine or two there it would become a big point of contesting and force a lot of mobility and expansion which, I imagine, is something you'd want.
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PostSubject: Re: What ideal map for multi should be?   Tue May 16, 2017 3:15 am

U can use them all u need. Have not much time nowadays but will try to do more.
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