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 Some general questions about the mode

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JacobH
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PostSubject: Some general questions about the mode   Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:45 am

Hi,

I didn't ifnd the appropriate topic, so let me ask a few question to WBC series veterans Smile :

1) My hero got 5 action points for the first levels (by 10-15, I don't remeber actually). And now I get only 2 points (level 26). Is it new game feature or I got a bag?

2) Is there a really useful weapons? What I found are sort of trash +4-6 damages. In the orifinal WBC3 there were lot's of weapons +20-30 damages.

3) What if the differences between Campaing and C.Campaign? I play The Protectors some time ago (1-2 years maybe) and I remeber that original campaign was called "C.Campaign". However what I see in "C.Campaign" now is very different from the orifginal one. At the same time "Campaign" is 10-15 minutes.

the question is which campaing is "the right one" campaign? Is "C.Campaign" trully new campaign of The Protectors or it's slightly changed version of the original one?

4) Unit balance

Actually I don't understand the pronciple of the balance. Almost all units of the same tier have similar stats. For example Paladin was really powerful unit in WBC3. Now it has almost the same stats as 1-st paladin - 155 hp vs 150, 22 damage vs 20.

The same story with the infantry - all has 70-80 hp and 10-12 damage. Generals also the same: either small unit with 250 hp and 40 damage or big one with 450 hp and 50 damages.

Is there is any logic in setting almost the same stats to all sides?.

5) Is there a way to change unit balance?
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Joe the Bartender
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PostSubject: Re: Some general questions about the mode   Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:40 am

Hi JacobH, I'll try to answer as best I can.

JacobH wrote:

1) My hero got 5 action points for the first levels (by 10-15, I don't remeber actually). And now I get only 2 points (level 26). Is it new game feature or I got a bag?
It's a new feature, heroes get less skill points when they level up at higher levels. This was done to try and stop higher level heroes from breaking the game too much as they were getting 5 points every level. TPC skills unlock at lower levels so we're trying to focus the more around levels 10-20 rather than 20-30+.

JacobH wrote:

2) Is there a really useful weapons? What I found are sort of trash +4-6 damages. In the orifinal WBC3 there were lot's of weapons +20-30 damages.
Items recently got completely rebalanced with an item skill point system and geared up for competitive multiplayer play. This meant that some of the original WBC3 items completely changed in stats, so few weapons will deal more than 6 damage. The reason this appears to be so low is also because the power of the Mighty Blow skill was halved to give +1 damage per point, so all items which increased damage have also been halved as well.

JacobH wrote:

3) What if the differences between Campaing and C.Campaign? I play The Protectors some time ago (1-2 years maybe) and I remeber that original campaign was called "C.Campaign". However what I see in "C.Campaign" now is very different from the orifginal one. At the same time "Campaign" is 10-15 minutes.
The Campaign is the unfinished Protectors campaign whilst C. Campaign is CW Magee's campaign adapted for the mod. The original WBC3 campaign can also be installed over CW Magee's campaign if wanted. Currently however it is requiring some fixes as the locations are in the wrong places. We'll release a fix soon.

JacobH wrote:

Is there is any logic in setting almost the same stats to all sides?
This was definitely one of the more controversial changes in 0.8.8. After we performed extensive testing, we found that 0.8.7's balancing was somewhat irregular. Some units were considerably better than others, whereas we wanted every race's units to be almost the same in ability but have different uses. This has meant that stats have been pulled closer towards the global medium for each type of Unit Value (how much food they cost). TPC's balance is based on this Unit Value or UV, whereas the original WBC3 was based on resource cost alone. The original type of balancing induced 'Doom Stacks' or hyperefficiency in certain units and strategies. This clause is something TPC is tailored to avoid, as we wanted every unit to be equally useful throughout the game, so that tactical and strategic choices are promoted. Some prefer UV balancing, while others prefer Doom Stacks.

JacobH wrote:

5) Is there a way to change unit balance?
Yes, all that is needed to change unit stats is Dal Gurak's unit editor, which is listed here on the wiki: http://etheria.wikia.com/wiki/Tool_Downloads
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JacobH
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PostSubject: Re: Some general questions about the mode   Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:57 am

Dear Joe the Bartender,

Thanks’ for your comprehensive answer, that’s really explain many things. However, I still have some questions/suggestions if you don't mind).

Joe the Bartender wrote:
The reason this appears to be so low is also because the power of the Mighty Blow skill was halved to give +1 damage per point, so all items which increased damage have also been halved as well.

That's truly interesting point! Do I understand correctly that, for example, 30% mighty blow skill now means 2 things the same time: 1) the hero deals critical strike 30% of all strikes, 2) the damage adds +30 damage vs triple damage in the original game? So if I up my skill by 50%, then I'll deal +50 damages 50% of the time?

If so, it's great. I remember my 38 lvl warrior on WBC campaign who could defeat all the map by himself, no matter what a difficulty was and how many sides there was).

Joe the Bartender wrote:
This was definitely one of the more controversial changes in 0.8.8. After we performed extensive testing, we found that 0.8.7's balancing was somewhat irregular.

As I imagined). That's interesting from one point of view and battles look very different from the original game. I could say that the game became faster (cheaper units, faster buildings) and more dynamic. However, races are still not comparable. For example, knights are among the strongest races, probably the strongest one. When I tried to change the race in the campaign from knights to barbarians, the game became much more harder). And it was against the Empire - the most medium race of all.

By the way, do you have a plan to make the balance more different for the races? For example, dwarf units might have 100-200 hp and 15-25 damages, but very slow speed and very slow attack speed. In the Fifth Horseman mod something similar was implemented: races are very much different from each other. For instance dwarwen infantry had 200 hp and 10 damage => excellent unit for defense but useless in fast attacks.

It's only mu thoughts, I understand that you did lots of testing and found the better way of units balancing).

And I have a final question/ideas regarding the Titans. In fact, there is no way to deal with the Titan if it appeared. Absolutely no way. Units became weaker (except some generals), at the same time titans has x2 times more hp compared with the original game. And their damage is also higher comparable to lower general units damage. For example 115 damage of Sirian I thinks is higher that 140 in WBC3. Titans are almost unbeatable. By WB lore it should be so, cause the’re legendary demi-guds, protectors of all races. Bu from balance point of view If you have the Titan you win. He slays all the sides alone. If the AI has the Titan and you don't you lose 95%. But unfortunately in fact titans are useless cause you finish the game faster than build the titan 95% of all cases

The question is, do you have some plans to make Titans 1) more useful in game (cheaper/earlier access/less building time), 2) not so powerful. Probably they should have 600-800 hp as in the original game, 50% less combat/armor, but some unique abilities and spells. In this way Titans would be the powerful super wizards, morale leaders, supporting the army, rather than replacing all units by its own.

From the game lore, you can rename these units as “Avatars”: “Syrian’s Avatar”, “Lord Bane’s Avatar” and so on. Such a scheme can explain why you summon these units again and again. Because they would be not the Titans as they are, but only their physical personification in Etheria. Finally, Titans as demi-god creatures should be far from casual fights across the Etheria, and they could probably appear as “Titans” only once in the C.Campaing (and future “Campaign”) whilst you assault race’s capital as the last hope of dying race.

Just imagine. You assault some Capital. And when the opp race has 1 building left the text message appear directly from the Titan like “I am Lunarion, the Immportal King of noble High Elves. You dared to beat my children and now I deal with you personally. Tremble and fear miserable creatures, the God is upon you!” Something like that). After that Lunarion appears with the big last army which you should defeat. The “True Titans” might be even stronger and bigger then the existing ones.

Or probably Titans would appear as an additional mission after the Capital Siege like “Kill Lunarion, Protector of High Elves to force them to join you”. And in this mission your opp start with the Titan.

In casual fights you could summon only Avatar, not the Titan himself.[/quote]
[/quote]
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Joe the Bartender
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PostSubject: Re: Some general questions about the mode   Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:57 am

JacobH wrote:

That's truly interesting point! Do I understand correctly that, for example, 30% mighty blow skill now means 2 things the same time: 1) the hero deals critical strike 30% of all strikes, 2) the damage adds +30 damage vs triple damage in the original game? So if I up my skill by 50%, then I'll deal +50 damages 50% of the time?
Nah we just decreased the damage it gives from +2 to +1 per point. So far it seems to be going well but if it needs changing again we can always do so in a future patch.

JacobH wrote:

However, races are still not comparable.
It's not going to be perfect yet but we're always working to improve the balance.

JacobH wrote:

By the way, do you have a plan to make the balance more different for the races?

Possibly. No idea if or when but it's an interesting thought.

JacobH wrote:

The question is, do you have some plans to make Titans 1) more useful in game (cheaper/earlier access/less building time), 2) not so powerful. Probably they should have 600-800 hp as in the original game, 50% less combat/armor, but some unique abilities and spells. In this way Titans would be the powerful super wizards, morale leaders, supporting the army, rather than replacing all units by its own.

We're planning something like this for future patches. Titans will become a bit weaker in exchange for special abilities and spells. Not sure about the titan avatars idea - I imagine some would be okay with it and some not. I suppose that would require plenty of internal and external discussion. Regardless, thanks for your input! sunny
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