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 Opinion in regard to new units in races

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Serpentis
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PostSubject: Opinion in regard to new units in races   Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:03 am

Hi Smile

So I played WBC3 (and all other WBC games before) when it was new, and I am still playing from time to time. This time I decided to search for some mod.

What follows are just opinions, and because you all mod WBC3, and noone even pays you, you can do as you like of course and ignore this completely. I myself mod an evo sim just for myself in the end.

I would have liked this mod probably, but:

In general, races should be unique, using unit models from other races does not help.
For example the Earth Elemental in green for Plaguelords.

I do like however, if you change the color of units, that are used for more than one race to make them more unique. The different colored wisps for Dark Elves and Wood Elves are nice.

Giant for Barbarians doesn´t fit at all. That unit was retired by the developers because it doesn´t fit with anyone. You could use it in quests (or maybe as a neutral unit, like spiders and goblins, maybe together with the old dwarf infantry), sure, but it doesn´t look that great anyway, and I do not see it as a Barbarian unit at all. Also do not think Barbarians need a spell caster (race identity), and it is the same model, which is used for Plaguelords (see above).

Dark dwarf crossbowman also feels odd, because it was a dwarf unit for a decade and a half and Dark Dwarves do not fight themselves, but build machines and golems. Always thought that was the identity of the race (for me at least).

I also like High Elves Wyvern more than Fairy Dragon and again, already a fairy unit and felt like a fairy unit for 14 years.

Using a titan model as base for a unit of the same race might be ok (the developers did it themselves), BUT it has to be smaller for sure. This new unit for the swarm makes Lord Melkor look unimportant and not special. Some of them could make an interesting normal unit, if scaled down however. Think of Sirian or Forestmaster maybe (Melkor might be ok too)...Not sure if you should however. The game is old, and some people play for too long xD, and might find it odd, if a race changes too much, as I already said. But still better than reusing models from other races, or deleting units, which people were accustomed with, for many years, from a race.

I am sure it can get somewhat boring, if you work (mod) with this game that much, and you then feel that you need to add some units, but... Yes, I admit, I might be a retro-gamer for this game here, and it is more easy then to feel strange when a race is changed too much. Especially if it is using units of another race or discarded units like the Giant. Changing the color also can feel odd. It is really just ingrained, sorry. Generally, I do not think you will get many more downloads with creating a unit here and there, and the danger to alienate people is relatively high.

I am ok with balance changes that aren´t too extreme. But I hated the summon timer for example xD. This wasn´t ever a gameplay mechanic in WBC, and I only played 1.03 because of this (never the unofficial patch). It is not in this mod, which is good for sure Smile

You probably won´t change anything, and you do not have to. Your hobby.
These are just opinions.

I myself would only change unit models and colors to differentiate races more at this point.
Not for any other reasons.

Not everything is a deal breaker subjectively. Most problematic for me is the barbarian faction and the pseudo titan for the swarm. But I also do not like anything that makes the races more similar (also graphically).

I think I like the hero changes, the music is great, I would like to play the new campaigns.
But some things (as I said) feel odd or very odd. And it spoils it for me :/.

Well, we are in suggestions, so here it is now:

Maybe split the mod into parts, if possible. Bug fixes and AI fixes as a stand alone would already help much. I really liked to read that Plaguelords finally build Hydras for example. Balance, Campaigns, Hero changes and race changes could also be split.

I do not know the source code of course and do not know, how much you can split everything. But I do not think it is that uncommon, that people may like some changes and additions you did, but not others. Splitting everything into different mods could help there.

I do not only want to criticize. If I did not think that this mod here has potential, I wouldn´t have written so much now (or rather nothing at all). But there are things here that spoil the mod for me, maybe because it simply has too many features and changes, and it is therefore impossible, that I like everything.

By the way, I would have no problems with a new race (if unit and building models look at least comparable to the standard races), because I don´t have to use it in games AND it would not change my "feeling" when I play with races I know.

Greetings.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinion in regard to new units in races   Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:00 pm

In short:

-No "Giant" as a normal unit for any race (does not fit).
-No use of models that are originally used by other races (or elementals) and not this race itself (opposite of making races unique)
-No Titan models that are not scaled down (devalues Titans)
-No removed units for any of the races (except if they "really really" do not fit that much, which is only true for some nests/brood units, I may like it if the Swarm would use a differently colored Dragonfly as tier 1 unit and wasps with better stats instead of the harpy at tier 2, because both are insects, and the harpy can just stay with other races)

Rather no color changes for units, except if it is done to differentiate them from another race, that also uses the unit. You could use the normal Wyvern color for High Elves and the green color for the nest version for example.
This isn´t because of bad modding work, but because of playing with the normal colored version forever.
Quest "hero" units could be unique in color however, this would be cool.

Edit: Again, I am not saying my opinion is the objectively right one, but subjectively I doubt that it makes much sense to reactivate discarded units (especially the Giant) and copy models just to have even more units in a game, that has 16 races already. Not enough uniqueness that way.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinion in regard to new units in races   Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:15 am

Serpentis wrote:

For example the Earth Elemental in green for Plaguelords.
We would like a new model for this, but it will suffice for now.

Serpentis wrote:

Giant for Barbarians doesn´t fit at all.
It was going to become a Storm Giant but we had to use the WBC1 Hill/Rock Giant model as we ran out of time.

Serpentis wrote:

That unit was retired by the developers because it doesn´t fit with anyone.
It's not that it didn't fit with anyone, it just didn't fit with the Orc race.

Serpentis wrote:

but it doesn´t look that great anyway
Nothing looks great - it's Warlords Battlecry.

Serpentis wrote:

Also do not think Barbarians need a spell caster (race identity), and it is the same model, which is used for Plaguelords (see above).
We thought the opposite to such an extent as to borrow another model in order to get the unit in by 0.8.8. We deemed it a requirement, even if we had to end up reusing a model. It will eventually become a new model, but regardless the Witch Doctor is here to stay. The Barbarians needed it both for gameplay reasons and for lore reasons. Their race identity actually includes spellcasters - it's canon that Barbarians have Shamans.

Serpentis wrote:

Dark dwarf crossbowman also feels odd, because it was a dwarf unit for a decade and a half and Dark Dwarves do not fight themselves, but build machines and golems. Always thought that was the identity of the race (for me at least).
That's not entirely true. Many Dark Dwarves do prefer to stay out of combat, but there are also those which participate - preferably from afar. Still, whether it feels odd or not is personal preference so if you don't like it that's absolutely fine. Some don't like changes, others do. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Serpentis wrote:

I also like High Elves Wyvern more than Fairy Dragon and again, already a fairy unit and felt like a fairy unit for 14 years.
The recoloured Faerie Dragon unit is serving as a replacement for the Unicorn. The purpose of the unit was to make the High Elves feel more unique, so they didn't need to directly use a Fey unit anymore. This unit will have a new model in time.

Serpentis wrote:
BUT it has to be smaller for sure. This new unit for the swarm makes Lord Melkor look unimportant and not special.
It is a bit smaller than Melkor, but yes it's still near the same size. The problem here is that Melkor is actually a really small titan. In fact, many of the titans are the same size as Tyrannosaurus Rexes and Elephants. We do eventually want to change all the titan models, but that's likely far into the future.

Serpentis wrote:

or deleting units, which people were accustomed with, for many years, from a race.
We removed:
- the Unicorn and Wyvern from the High Elves
- the Sprite and Pixie from the Wood Elves
- the Imp (and soon the Skeleton & Daemon) from the Dark Elves
Aside from the Wyvern, all removed units belonged to other races. We also tweaked some Plaguelord units and changed some Firebats to Frostbats, but didn't completely remove any others.

Serpentis wrote:
feel that you need to add some units
None of the units we've added were done so on a whim. They all had a particular purpose, whether that is fleshing out the race, fleshing out lore or for balancing purposes. We've never added units just because we felt like it.

Serpentis wrote:
Generally, I do not think you will get many more downloads with creating a unit here and there, and the danger to alienate people is relatively high.
I actually think the opposite is true. Yes, there are those who still play 1.03 or unofficial patches, but there is a fairly sizeable following of the Protectors, considering the circumstances. We've even got a functioning metagame and user-made guides. Most enjoy the changes made in the game, and even call it WBC3.5. Make no mistake though, TPC isn't supposed to be a direct patch of 1.03, so it's only logical that a minority stick only to 1.03 or the unofficial patches. It's best to consider TPC a new game rather than patch 1.04. We are also getting plenty of downloads - around 10 a day. Yeah sure that's not much, but for a game this old and unexposed that's pretty good in my opinion.

Serpentis wrote:
I myself would only change unit models and colors to differentiate races more at this point.
That's the plan. We never introduce new units without good reason. There may be a few more, but I wouldn't expect many.

Serpentis wrote:
Maybe split the mod into parts, if possible. Bug fixes and AI fixes as a stand alone would already help much. I really liked to read that Plaguelords finally build Hydras for example. Balance, Campaigns, Hero changes and race changes could also be split.
It is possible, but someone else would have to do the work. We are only interested in developing the Protectors. If anyone else is interested in these fixes, they can get the source from Pat.

Serpentis wrote:
No use of models that are originally used by other races (or elementals) and not this race itself (opposite of making races unique)
It's the opposite of making races unique only graphically. We do wish to replace these models, but do not currently have the manpower to do so - yet. Come a few patches we should have all of them replaced.

Serpentis wrote:

This isn´t because of bad modding work, but because of playing with the normal colored version forever.
For us, age is not an indicator of quality or personal preference. If you prefer original WBC3 sprites, balancing and production, I would recommend playing that instead of TPC. It's better to think of TPC as a new Warlords Battlecry game rather than WBC3 patch 1.04.

Serpentis wrote:

Edit: Again, I am not saying my opinion is the objectively right one, but subjectively I doubt that it makes much sense to reactivate discarded units (especially the Giant) and copy models just to have even more units in a game, that has 16 races already. Not enough uniqueness that way.
I think the purpose of these new units may have been misunderstood.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinion in regard to new units in races   Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:34 am

Nice, this forum seems to be active enough. Smile

Quote :
We would like a new model for this, but it will suffice for now.

Well, it would not be a real problem for me. I would rather use a scaled up and slightly different colored Plaguelord slime unit instead however. Overall this doesn´t spoil the mod for me, but as I said copying models from other races isn´t really helpful in my opinion in general.

Quote :
It was going to become a Storm Giant but we had to use the WBC1 Hill/Rock Giant model as we ran out of time.

Do not think Barbarians are giants. This also differentiates them from Orcs and especially Minotaurus. Barbarians are just humans. Makes no sense to have a non human unit. Here I have a strong opinion.

Quote :
It's not that it didn't fit with anyone, it just didn't fit with the Orc race.

It did not, and I remember, that I was happy when they removed it. It would only fit with a non existing Giant race. Use it in the campaign or in quests, but you don´t have to fit in all units of the series into existing races. And as I said, Barbarians are just humans. No need to give them a giant unit like Minotaurus have. If you really want to have one use the elephant. You would copy something but It would actually fit. I mean, you (everyone that works on it) can spoil the mod for me and maybe others as you like, but just want to give feedback. If you want more people to play at least this here might be important.

Quote :
We thought the opposite to such an extent as to borrow another model in order to get the unit in by 0.8.8. We deemed it a requirement, even if we had to end up reusing a model. It will eventually become a new model, but regardless the Witch Doctor is here to stay. The Barbarians needed it both for gameplay reasons and for lore reasons. Their race identity actually includes spellcasters - it's canon that Barbarians have Shamans.

Ok, you convinced me somewhat.

Especially using another general unit isn´t the best thing. However I cannot say, that another unit would be looking better with them. This would not spoil the mod, fine enough.
Don´t make him a general here too, if he is (did not test).

Quote :
That's not entirely true. Many Dark Dwarves do prefer to stay out of combat, but there are also those which participate - preferably from afar. Still, whether it feels odd or not is personal preference so if you don't like it that's absolutely fine. Some don't like changes, others do. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Yes, it is still the most fitting unit. If I would play a bit, it might be ok. Not a deal breaker for sure. Still, i would not use dwarf combat units for Dark Dwarves.

Quote :
The recoloured Faerie Dragon unit is serving as a replacement for the Unicorn. The purpose of the unit was to make the High Elves feel more unique, so they didn't need to directly use a Fey unit anymore. This unit will have a new model in time.

Ok, I understand this. Although the unicorn isn`t that unfitting. It fits a bit more into the Fey race, sure. However, you just really swapped a fey unit for a fey unit, and I think that the fairy dragon is more fey like Razz.

I am sure that this mod is a work in progress, but better wait than create something half finished.

Quote :
It is a bit smaller than Melkor, but yes it's still near the same size. The problem here is that Melkor is actually a really small titan. In fact, many of the titans are the same size as Tyrannosaurus Rexes and Elephants. We do eventually want to change all the titan models, but that's likely far into the future.

You should make it smaller for sure.

Elephants and T rex are just large in real life. Not all non titan units have to be much smaller. But if you use a titan model, you need to "tell", that it is not a titan.

Yes, this is really bad as it is. I simply do not want to have titan sized units with the same model running around on the map.

Quote :
- the Unicorn and Wyvern from the High Elves

Well, think the Wyvern fits well as a dragon unit for a race that is known for their dragons. Just use the green unit for non High Elves Wyvern and the normal red unit here.

Removing the unicorn makes more sense, but fairy dragon is also very much a fey unit.

I might still play the mod, if this stays, but I really see no sense in using the fairy dragon instead of the Wyvern as a dragon unit model here. Why, really? The Wyvern looks more majestic for sure. Wyvern even is in coat of arms in real life.

Just use the red Wyvern here and the green one for nests. This makes enough difference.

Quote :
- the Sprite and Pixie from the Wood Elves

Ok, I totally get this. Not even noticed it Wink This should really be for the better.

Quote :
- the Imp (and soon the Skeleton & Daemon) from the Dark Elves

I am ok with this. Also does make the races more unique.

Quote :
It's best to consider TPC a new game rather than patch 1.04. We are also getting plenty of downloads - around 10 a day. Yeah sure that's not much, but for a game this old and unexposed that's pretty good in my opinion.

Well, I haven´t really played it, but it looks interesting for sure. Smile I wouldn´t create an account here, and write that much, if my first impression was bad in general. Really no need.

But sure, there are some things I do not like, maybe hate (a few of them).

Surely this is just your hobby, and I do not think I have a right to change your mod.

Just some suggestions that might help, if you also want to have more people to play it.

I do not think the giant in Barbarians or titan sized titan-model units do get you any downloads, but I believe there will be enough people that do not like them at all.

Quote :
It is possible, but someone else would have to do the work. We are only interested in developing the Protectors. If anyone else is interested in these fixes, they can get the source from Pat.

Hmmm...
I program a bit as a hobby. Not sure I want to do that much for this game however. It was one of my favourite games. But if I am still THAT interested? Which programming language is this?

Overall, I always think it is helpful to split. You make it easier to reach different people.
That is, if you care about it.

Quote :
For us, age is not an indicator of quality or personal preference. If you prefer original WBC3 sprites, balancing and production, I would recommend playing that instead of TPC. It's better to think of TPC as a new Warlords Battlecry game rather than WBC3 patch 1.04.

Well, you still completely use WBC3 graphics. There is nothing bad with it. Super hard to create quality sprites for sure. I have seen another mod, that tried it, but well... Because the graphics are still the same it isn´t really necessary to recolor units that aren´t used by more than one race.

BUT this isn´t a big problem, if it is done well enough. As far as I saw, the recoloring is done well. Just feels a bit odd for no big reason now, but ok, this won´t spoil the mod for me.

Ok, I will conclude with what really needs to change (just my opinion of course, but doubt that other people will feel strongly positive about these specific changes you made):

-"Barbarian" Giant:
Use the Elephant (maybe colored differently), if you really want them to have a big unit. No non human races like Giants. Barbarians are just a human race and rather giant killers (reaver) Wink)

-Size of the new swarm unit, that looks like Melkor.

-Wyvern again instead of fairy dragon. You think the Wyvern is evil? As I said, it is in coat of arms. Just use the red one, and the green one for nests. Fairy dragon is so "fairy", and not majestic at all. If you find a dragon like this in coat of arms, I would be super surprised.

Edit: Another explanation why fairy dragon is so bad for High Elves. It looks like a butterfly, which is good for Fey units. But it just doesn´t work here.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinion in regard to new units in races   Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:04 am

Serpentis wrote:

Use it in the campaign or in quests, but you don´t have to fit in all units of the series into existing races.
It's possible that the Barbarians may have the Giant removed, but it may also stay. I guess it depends on what the consensus is on it, and if there is any lore evidence to support good relations between the respective races. The main reason it was put in was so the Reaver would become an advanced infantry unit rather than remain a general. They were never a general quality unit in the canon, and it always felt really weird that they were in WBC.

Serpentis wrote:

I am sure that this mod is a work in progress, but better wait than create something half finished.
Not always. It's sometimes more beneficial to use palette-swapped units as new units if it helps the gameplay enough. In our eyes it did improve it enough, so we implemented it. Many palette-swapped units do have small physical differences, which I hope should help at least a little (in the case of the Celestial Hatchling, it doesn't have the decoration on the wings).

Serpentis wrote:

Not all non titan units have to be much smaller. But if you use a titan model, you need to "tell", that it is not a titan.
For me, it depends on the titan. Some I think should be massive, while others just regular-unit sized but with crazy cool effects. The vanilla titans imo are complete garbage even by comparison to the regular units. Many are too small and devoid of detail or special effects. They also have particularly bad animation. I think the unit is as much a victim as the titans. An example is the Skull of Sartek. This titan's model is actually a massive error that was never fixed. It's supposed to be a bull's skull, not a human's. Others like Grond have massive animation glitches which can't even be repaired. The titans in general feel like they were done in great haste and with relatively little consideration. Ultimately, both the titans and the palette-swapped units need new models.

Serpentis wrote:

Well, think the Wyvern fits well as a dragon unit for a race that is known for their dragons.
The Celestial Hatchling works pretty well too. The only problem I can see is with the borrowed model, which will be fixed in time.

Serpentis wrote:

I might still play the mod, if this stays, but I really see no sense in using the fairy dragon instead of the Wyvern as a dragon unit model here. Why, really? The Wyvern looks more majestic for sure. Wyvern even is in coat of arms in real life.
The green fairy dragon is supposed to be a young Celestial Dragon. Real life isn't always relatable to a fictional universe.

Serpentis wrote:

Well, I haven´t really played it, but it looks interesting for sure.
How much have you played?

Serpentis wrote:

Just some suggestions that might help, if you also want to have more people to play it.
There are some others which dislike some of the new unit models for sure, though they appear to be in the vast minority at the moment. Our intentions with these new units wasn't to alienate or offend, only to try and improve and fix the game in one way or another. We do not yet have the manpower to replace these models, so consider these new units half-finished for now if that helps.

Serpentis wrote:

I do not think the giant in Barbarians or titan sized titan-model units do get you any downloads
I wouldn't expect the new units to increase the number of downloads. Their models are temporary, but in terms of gameplay and lore, considered necessary by the team.

Serpentis wrote:

but I believe there will be enough people that do not like them at all.
So far it's looking good on this front. Only a few dislikes so far.

Serpentis wrote:

Which programming language is this?
C++.

Serpentis wrote:

Overall, I always think it is helpful to split. You make it easier to reach different people.
That was the original purpose of the Unofficial Patch line but unfortunately it got cancelled.

Serpentis wrote:

That is, if you care about it.
Both yes and no. I would like to see a new Unofficial Patch split off from TPC's code, but the team don't have interest in doing so. Rodmar would be interested in making a new patch but is lacking a programmer.

Serpentis wrote:

Because the graphics are still the same it isn´t really necessary to recolor units that aren´t used by more than one race.
It depends on the reason it was done. The Halberdier's armour for example changed in colour from milky-white to shiny steel to fit better with the race and the Warlords universe.

Serpentis wrote:

You think the Wyvern is evil? As I said, it is in coat of arms. Just use the red one, and the green one for nests. Fairy dragon is so "fairy", and not majestic at all. If you find a dragon like this in coat of arms, I would be super surprised.
I never said or implied that the Wyvern was in any way evil. I don't understand what regional or national symbols have to do with High Elves no longer producing Wyverns.
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